Shorty Folks

[JTM]

That's kind of what I was getting at. "It's all water under the bridge at this point". I look at asterisk free as just another tool that cattlemen can use just like epds and pedigrees. It's a distinction, whether or not it's 100% accurate in it's claim we all know it's probably not true. Again, it's a tool that I believe gives additional value for someone because it limits the gene pool of that particular set. Therefore, it can bring additional value to someone who wants to bring in new genetics that may boost performance and improve their herd.

 

[r.n.reed]

Speaking of the 1970's,I wonder if anyone could fill us in on the Irish Shorthorn society's Red Cow improvement scheme.

 

[RyanChandler]

Yea, I guess I'm just not a proponent of subscribing to something "that we all know is probably not true."  It does have some marketing value though  :

How bout those reg #s?  These reg numbers are starting to sound like the Shorthorn DNA test- non existent.

 

[irishshorthorns]

R.N.Reed The Irish Shorthorn Improvement Scheme was started after the Irish Department of Agriculture noticed a worrying decline in Ireland's Shorthorns due to the British Friesian gaining a large foothold on small Irish farms. To stop the decline the Irish Dept. of Ag. in conjunction with the Coates herd book set up a scheme whereby Shorthorn cattle who's pedigrees had not been recorded could be allowed into the herdbook after inspection by designated officials approved by both organisations. Many people had stopped registering their cattle due to the expense involved and the severe economic depression at the time. Luckily the scheme was a success as the IDOA provided the funding for the inspections and the other costs which otherwise would have had to been carried by the breeders.

 

[r.n.reed]

Thanks for clarifying that Irishshorthorns,I had read a pamphlet back in the late 1970's published in the United Kingdom that talked about allowing breeders to use M.R.I.,Simmental,Red and White Holstein and a couple others I can't remember,must of been another program.
Can you tell me anything about the Kilfinny herd?

 

[oakview]

For all you asterisk free fanatics, I refer you to lots 28 and 29 in the Jordan Acres sale catalog.  The footnote for lot 29 states that she, and the previous lot, do not have an asterisk on their registration number.  That is correct.  However, both the sire and dam of each lot have an asterisk number.  Unless you know pedigrees, and I maintain that most breeders do not, be careful what you assume to be asterisk free without adequate research.  The Irish Shorthorns lack of a pedigree has been discussed to death.  If you need a registration number to look up, look up my old bull Lazy D Ultimate Type 3741854.  Deerpark Foundation is the most prominent ancestor.  He's a paternal brother to Leader 13th, Leader 18th, and many more.  Personally, I don't care about the asterisk.  All I want is an accurate pedigree.

 

[r.n.reed]

Good post Oakview,people need to do their homework.An accurate pedigree is far more valuable than a asterisk free pedigree of questionable merit. To me the breeders listed below the names are more important than the animals.Are they people of Integrity?Do their programs have a similar focus to mine?Have they stayed the course or bounced from one hot ticket to the next?etc.

 

[justintime]

Good post Oakview,people need to do their homework.An accurate pedigree is far more valuable than a asterisk free pedigree of questionable merit. To me the breeders listed below the names are more important than the animals.Are they people of Integrity?Do their programs have a similar focus to mine?Have they stayed the course or bounced from one hot ticket to the next?etc.

I could not agree more!  Accuracy of pedigree is far more important than an asterisk free pedigree. What frustrates me are the people who say they can not use an animal with an asterisk in the pedigree, then go out and buy animals that are known to have questionable genetics in their background. I see it all the time and it drives me a bit crazy.

I also agree about the integrity of the breeder of any animal. People buy cattle from people they like and trust. I can think of one example in my experience that has made me avoid dealing with a certain breeder's cattle. Several years ago, I purchased a cow from this breeder for $7200. She was supposedly preg tested to calve to an AI service in February of the coming year. She did not calve until June, and had a crippled calf that I ended up putting down as it was suffering.( by the birthdate of the calf, she would have had to have been bred a few days prior to his production sale and the preg test was supposedly done 1 week before the sale.... so something was totally wrong with this picture!) To top this off, the cow would not rebreed. I contacted the seller and he said he would not offer any compensation as his vet was not very accurate and that I had probably hurt this cow calving her. I was not wanting full compensation, but when he continually blamed me for some of the cows problems, I was a bit ticked off. She had calved unassisted. I kept her for another year and she was still open the next fall.  This was the second time this breeder had stuck it to me, so I can honestly say that even if this man produced the best animal I have ever seen, I would not be interested.

 

[knabe]

Maybe that "best" one he has no idea who it is.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Is there any real value in asterisk free cattle other then a selling point? Do these cattle consitantly re-produce themselves better then non asterisk cattle? I think not. If the cattle are linebred for several generations and a type has been established then it could matter.  I think the asterisk deal is overrated.

My theory is being proven true by the trump on trump still being successful. It's replicating itself. It appears when he is bred on himself the desirable traits he produced are still there if not better. I find it kind of funny. Shorthorn folks only line bred him because there was nothing out there supposedly. Ha


<beer>

 

[JTM]

I think that asterisk free Shorthorns are definitely a valuable option. It provides a tighter gene pool that can be used for better hybrid vigor in a crossbreeding program for commercial purposes. I think if I'm looking at several head of cattle similar in type and performance and have an asterisk free option, it would make me feel like the asterisk free has a bit more value than the asterisk. More options for your breeding program.

yea, thats gonna be near impossible. Unless of course you're talking Canadian asterick free.

Uh, no it's not. If you want to see some come to Ohio. Of course I'm sure you already knew that I have asterisk free Shorthorns along side asterisk and appendix Shorthorns in my pastures right now. It's rare but not near impossible... When it all comes down to it though, I agree with JIT that we should "Let people use the genetics they want and let the marketplace decide on whether they are right or wrong." And that includes Crossbred bulls (Appendix). 

Unless you attach a certain level of nostalgia to using the asterisk free, I think it's ill advised to make selections solely on whether they carry it or not.


Again, I'll ask JTM or anyone really:

If you have the time, I wouldn't mind seeing some reg #s of these asterick free cattle that have comparable performance but don't have Irish or Canadian breeding up close.  I found some RB cattle that were close but then you see lots of Canadian influence within a couple generations. "

Not sure anyone said that they didn't have Canadian breeding in the pedigree. So I really don't get what you are eluding to. Of course it's ill advised to make purchasing decisions based solely on whether they were asterisk or not. Asterisk free is asterisk free whether or not it has Canadian or not. We can discuss and debate the formula for asterisk free but it is what it is and I see value in asterisk free cattle in the ASA herd book that can perform comparably to Maine Anjou or other influenced Shorthorn cattle on a consistent basis. There are a number of bulls currently listed asterisk free in the ASA herdbook that would definitely qualify for creating these comparable performing cattle. I would even say that they would outperform them in most cases when analyzing multiple traits and looking at percentage of pounds sold per pounds bred.  As far as my knowledge, this is only a recent development but I believe it speaks volumes of the potential in the breed right now.

I was eluding to the fact that I said, "yea, thats gonna be near impossible (to find comparable performance in an asterick free package.) Unless of course you're talking Canadian asterick free."

Whereas you replied, "Uh, no it's not. If you want to see some come to Ohio."

Implicit here, is that you feel you have some non Canadian asterick free cattle that are comparable to the asterick cattle in terms of performance. 

You went on to say, "There are a number of bulls currently listed asterisk free in the ASA herdbook that would definitely qualify for creating these comparable performing cattle."  Surely you weren't referring to Canadian bred bulls as the inital search excluded them!

I've ask 3 times now, what are the reg #s of these bulls?

For all you asterisk free fanatics, I refer you to lots 28 and 29 in the Jordan Acres sale catalog.  The footnote for lot 29 states that she, and the previous lot, do not have an asterisk on their registration number.  That is correct.  However, both the sire and dam of each lot have an asterisk number.  Unless you know pedigrees, and I maintain that most breeders do not, be careful what you assume to be asterisk free without adequate research.  The Irish Shorthorns lack of a pedigree has been discussed to death.  If you need a registration number to look up, look up my old bull Lazy D Ultimate Type 3741854.  Deerpark Foundation is the most prominent ancestor.  He's a paternal brother to Leader 13th, Leader 18th, and many more.  Personally, I don't care about the asterisk.  All I want is an accurate pedigree.

I couldn't agree more.  JTM seems to feel that asterick free is only what the association defines (at the time) as asterick free-- and not that there isnt a universal truth regarding the definition.  This is likely the only area in his life where he subscribes to relativism. 

Asterisk free is asterisk free whether or not it has Canadian or not. We can discuss and debate the formula for asterisk free but it is what it is

Oh wow! You got me!  (clapping)

The antagonist has got me locked in a room! Can't you just find the good points in someones argument or do you have to continue to nit pick little things? It gets old real quick...  (argue)

 

[RyanChandler]

Mr Eagon's understanding is not only astute but correct! 


So pretty much, JTM, you're just rambling about these reg #s.  kinda like your buddy rambling about the SH DNA test. Typical.

 

[JTM]

Mr Eagon's understanding is not only astute but correct! 


So pretty much, JTM, you're just rambling about these reg #s.  kinda like your buddy rambling about the SH DNA test. Typical.

(lol) You are really getting your panties in a bunch aren't you there. Typical.

 

[knabe]

Mr Eagon's understanding is not only astute but correct! 


So pretty much, JTM, you're just rambling about these reg #s.  kinda like your buddy rambling about the SH DNA test. Typical.

pining for that field rep job eh?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Can we all stop the petty bitching. Good god.


Let's keep the cow talk going. I want no part of any field rep job. Obviously you speak of xbar. He is a friend. So is a lot of folks on here. I annoy others. Waaahhhh. Let's talk about what it is going to take to make beef cattle profitable in the future. Let's discuss the past. Let's not let trivial crap get in the way.


Divide, divide, divide. It's the way of the machine you know. Nobody can get anything accomplished when we all blame each other for the problems.

 

[RyanChandler]

Mr Eagon's understanding is not only astute but correct! 


So pretty much, JTM, you're just rambling about these reg #s.  kinda like your buddy rambling about the SH DNA test. Typical.

(lol) You are really getting your panties in a bunch aren't you there. Typical.

You're right, I have a very quick and assertive approach to bullshit.  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to substantiate their public claims;  something you continue to maneuver around.


Field Rep, Knabe!? C'Mon Maaaan- what we need are executives: to establish and enforce breed character standards, mandate mandatory performance reporting, identify the truely superior sires within the breed, and then promote the shit out of these genetics. 

 

[knabe]

Go for Asa president. I'm sure your breed character will win over new membership.

 

[JTM]

I don't believe mandating performance reporting in a show breed is very wise. It could be the end of it. I think we need to start by aligning together with common ideas instead of antagonizing each other. If we can build a bridge from the show cattle genetics to the commercially acceptable genetics we may have a chance to turn things around with commercial acceptability. You don't build bridges by lighting fires underneath them.

 

[knabe]

why not have a commercial bull class?

all entrants must be sold in the commercial sale at national show.

it would cut to the chase really fast.

 

[knabe]

Field Rep, Knabe!? C'Mon Maaaan- what we need are executives

lead by example.  use your powers of persuasion.  i'm sure they are extensive.