Shorty Folks

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

On my search to found 100% pure genetics, Australia was also checked through web site search. Will not afirm that ALL animals as is impossible do it. But can tell that almost all show S.F.A. ancestors around 1950-1955. SFA means Shorthrn Foundation Animals that means open pedigree animals entered on register after technical admission, like Irish genetics.

None animals there too.

For me, the unique ways to get pure - asterisk free, SFA free, Irish free - are Native or some Dairy Shorthorn herds on UK. I know a very good one and am trying to bring embryos from there. I own lots of 100% bulls semen and will use it on these genetics to select a beef herd with that genetic base, or, get it on US with Native genetics.

 

[r.n.reed]

Apparently he was registered in the AMSS Native registry by one of our semen customers and I just found out recently when a native breeder contacted me for some semen.

 

[oakview]

The only question I could have on the 4001322 bull would be his Australian ancestry.  The Canadian ancestors look good back as far as they go on their website. They generally seem to end with either Scotch Shorthorns or Australian lines.  The Australian cattle in his background were before the time of Enticer, Tribune, etc.  The Australian website has pretty complete pedigrees, too.  If so many animals have the SFA designation, this could also be a  dead end in the quest for a true native animal.  More research needed, perhaps.  My understanding is that to quality for "native" designation, all animals must trace to the Coates Herd Book.  If someone knows otherwise, let me know.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Agree with Oakview regardig Native criteria.
For a full accurate analyses, DNA is the key!

 

[r.n.reed]

Not sure if DNA was required for native registry but I know that his paternal grandsire who carries the Australian line has DNA'd as pure Shorthorn.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I will do DNA analyses to check pedigrees veracity.
Of course that some old Australian lines are pure, as Lone Pine, Gundibri, Milly Milly, Gubbawarra, etc.. that show very ancient lines.

 

[RyanChandler]

Where is knabe when you need him?  I could have sworn he posted a chart awhile back about typing shorthorns and how close-even closer- full blood maines were to the durhams than many shorthorn lines were.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Ryan, Knabe is not here, but I can tell you same thing!

If you use determinate Shorthorn bulls on DNA analyse - Enticer as example or maybe Gus or Big mac - you will find him very very close to Maines, as they are 50% Maines - not on pedigree as well.

Already mentioned here. Today the DNA analyses protocols were upgraded, we can not use the old 80's analyses as standard. New analyses need to be done.

 

[knabe]

Jared decker did the work who posts on here as the steak blog Hereford guy while with jerry taylor at univ missouri.

There was a limited number of purebreds in the maine anjou set and i cant remember how many fullbloods there were. I gave them some fullbloods, but i dont remember iff they made it in the set or if they were even necessary for the branching. I didnt review the data, only saw the final paperwork with the dendogram.

I would like to see a few full french in there as well as cunia, epinal, buret, bysantin, dalton, paramount etc.  probably all it would prove with respect the the fullbloods would be how close the are to shorthorns rather than disturbing the order of relatedness.

I wish they had gotten some chillingham dna.

 

[knabe]

Heres the link. Its a pdf so its a little slow.

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/44/18644.full.pdf

 

[knabe]

I used to know the individuals they used, but cant find that info.

For the maines, there were 5.  The numbers are prob not reg numbers as they dont ring a bell. I seem to remember they were black but i could be wrong. 

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2009/10/21/0904691106.DCSupplemental/ST4_PDF.pdf

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Thank you Knabe. I already read this paper.
Is interest one of course. But note that Murray Grey - formely 50% Angus x Shorthorn cross - is ngus closest than Shorthorn.
Also Red Poll is closest to Angus, but on your history none Angus weas infusioned there (not officially as we can know).
Shorthorns and Lincoln Red are very closest as many Shorthorns were used to form LR, and the Lincolnshire base cows used for LR formation can show a historic link with Shorthorns, but interest as none Angus trace appear here, same with 40's Pentecost infusions.
Maines and BBlues are closest, showing the historic link among them through Shorthorn bulls used on their formation.

On graphic 3 I suppose be better to uderstand the breeds philogeny. Were we will find a closer White Park, Galloway and Highland and LOnghorns, named the oldest stock on UK.
Interest as Hereford is closest to Welsh Black as historic data, but far from Longhorns as many authors describe as being some infusion on early Herefordshire stock.

Again Red Poll closest to Angus, so the polled strain that originated Red poll can be some link degree with same branch that originated Angus cattle. Probably linked with Scottish cattle bring to Smithfiled for be fat.

Lots of possible discussion here. Like it.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Would to be useful and get us better answer about sample if we had a most accurate info about samples sources, specially access to animals name or register number. As we all know an animal registered on ASA is Shorthorn, same that it have a 7/8 blood percentage, as well as UK register accept 75% Shorthorn 25% Maine, as Shorthorn.
Maybe with these information we can see more details to explain some genetic details.

 

[Dale]

Weebollabolla Theodore T85 has been discussed on this board previously.  Do they have asterisks down under?  What are your thoughts about the purity of the Weebollabolla cattle?  Were Weebollabolla Shorthorns not registered at some point in the past? 

 

[knabe]

3 of the 5 maine's used for the breed comparison were

dj bulls eye
http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=288314

easy street is probably
http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=419958


daines holysmoke
http://www.maine-anjou.org/pagedisplay.php?id=410442

note that holysmoke is the sire of bullyseye.  i don't know who the other two were.

i guess i would have liked them all to be fullbloods to see if the mancelle showed up related to anything without the angus and hereford and whatever else is in the maine purebreds.

 

[dryfalls]

Dale,  Your question about Weebollabolla registration in Australia brought back lots of memories with my experiences with Weebollabolla breeding.  I bought a Webolla sired bull from Garry Hook, a Shorthorn breeder in British Columbia. He had traveled down under and purchased males, females and semen from Mandalong and Weebollabolla. I purchased  a Weebollabolla sired bull.  He was registered as a purebred in the Canadian Gradedup herd book.  Garry was quick to point out that Weebollabolla cattle were purebred cattle, but friction arose at  Weebollabolla when the Australian Shorthorn organization tried to tell the Munro family what their cattle should look like.  The end result was Munro's told the shorthorn group that they needed Munro's more than Munro's needed the organization.  Weebollabolla quit registering many of their cattle.  Mrs.  Ann Munro verified this at the World Shorthorn Conference at Calgary, Alberta in July of 1980.  Mrs. Munro was quick to point  out that complete records had been kept and that matings were verified.  I hope this explains some questions about Weebollabolla breeding

 

[Dale]

Thanks, dryfalls.  I used Weebollabolla Theodore recently to open a couple of heifers, and had 2 unassisted births.  I was not concerned about his purity--are the Dover cattle in North America a little like Weebollabolla, in that somebody stubbornly bred what they believed in and developed a more useful product than some of those who always chase the whirlwind? 

I was catching up on my registrations and discovered an animal that I had reported to ASA using Theo's sire instead of Theo.  I sent a message to ASA to correct my error.  I expect that such errors are not unusual, and I'm not talking about deliberate reporting of wrong parentage; surely that would never happen  Asterisks are useful, but sometimes a neighbor's bull jumps the fence and the pedigree is not what we thought it was...I still prefer doing business with people who believe in doing the right thing.

 

[knabe]

http://www.rlshorthorns.com/weebollabolla_theodore.htm

http://royallabeef.com/siresandsemen.html

http://www.marellan.com.au/index.php/sires-and-semen

to me, he looks like i wish jpj looked.

 

[Dale]

knabe, in your last link you can see the color of Theo, which is listed as roan in Australia (here he is "red").  We have also sampled Jazz, and Theo has the appearance of more length and frame in the picture where he is not yet mature.  I do not consider Theodore to be the answer to every problem, but it would be interesting to have some of his genetics back a generation or two--he sure must be functional to have over 1000 offspring for the Aussies.  "Down under" his accuracies are in the 90's, something we do not get to see often enough in Shorthorns.

 

[knabe]

who cares what color he is.

there isn't a bull that is the answer to every problem.

i think he stacks up well with buster and leroy