TH and PHA in correlation with quality

[DL]

I think when a breeder selected his eight or more bull battery of which were 100% PHA carriers, says something to me (this being before the test). Logic tells me that there was something visual in the selection process and this has to be taken into account... What are the chances this was coincidental?

Telos - Mrs Butterworth doesn't know  but she wishes she did

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The clean cattle that are coming from carriers are only being produced by taking the risk-hair hip or not-there are a couple of clean heatwaves-a bunch of clean (both ways  doublestuffs) etc-I feel that getting the look-and maybe even some calving ease outside the ajendas of  some  of the penny antee, political,selfserving cliques that are supposedly improving (imploding) some breeds of cattle is a good thing.-Hopefully  the so-called next great sires (seen a bunch come and go) and the lucky (or vice versa) firms that are privy to syndication-wont be of use to us mere cattle folks who can buy better and more predictable genetics from a semen distributor. O0 <beer>

 

[knabe]

Telos - Mrs Butterworth doesn't know  but she wishes she did

it doesn't matter who knows anymore.  no one will try it for a few years.  by then, everyone will have forgotten what it was that everyone will think it's new.

 

[DTW]

Until they start picking a different type of market animal.  Carriers are going to be in demand.

 

[GONEWEST]

Jeff do you think maybe that most of these Maine bulls that are PHA carriers go back to Irish Whiskey or his sire and maybe that's where they get their mass and not from the PHA? I don't claim to see nearly as many bulls as you but I can't see that the AI sires that are PHA carriers have any more mass than those that are not except maybe that their sires are really stout. Just asking out of ignorance. Don't pull a photographer on me and be offended. For me there has been not nearly the correlation in "quality" in PHA carriers as there is in TH carriers or at least those produced from TH carrier bulls. Maybe PHA will go away in time if it has less of an economic factor.

I am pretty sure you can't tell a TH carrier by looking. I once had a Heatseeker flush that had three heifers. Two great ones that could have been poster children for TH and one frail, slick one that was sale barn material. All three were carriers. I can understand someone saying that USUALLY they can tell by looking. As can most of us.

Oakview, I'm thinking that when people say that TH is required to win in the ring that they are referring to steers. Since most of those cattle you spoke of in Louisville are Trump based, they are of course clean. But there steer mates wouldn't have won and actually, I don't think they'd do very well here in our jr shows. Too big probably. But I don't think anyone was referring to a national shorthorn female show when they mentioned TH was essential. It's not essential in a national Simmental heifer show, either. But it would help out in the steer show.

As far as my personal view that's worth no more than anyone else's, I don't care if they are aircraft carriers. If they are good I like them. If they are good I can sell them. The only performance number that really matters is your checking account. If carrier cattle can raise that number I think they are good. That doesn't mean not having full disclosure to buyers or any sort of cover up. I just think you can manage these genetic problems just as you can manage horned or polled. It's absolutely fine with me what ever you believe as far as carriers are concerned. Just don't get on some moral high horse because you are trying to better the breed or the american cow herd or what ever and someone else is trying to make money to make a living and feed their family.

 

[JSchroeder]

On the female, side, yes plenty of Whiskeys.  On the bull side, no. 

I want to differentiate that it wasn't so much quality as bone and mass.

 

[Jill]

I'm a little late coming in here, but have to agree with DL, out of all the years we have raised Maine cattle and the thousands of carriers I have seen, I can honestly tell you I don't see any difference or benefits of a PHA carrier.  That being said, I like Irish Whiskey, we bred a large number of our Angus cows to him this year trying to get some clean replacements out of him, I didn't breed to him to get the carrier "look" I bred to him because he is a stout moderate framed animal I happen to like, same reason I breed to Anchor on the Angus side.  
I will have to say on the clubby side, if you want the look, it comes right now with the th carriers, don't know if it's because they are carriers or if it just happens to be a coincidence, but there seems to be a connection there in my book.

 

[knabe]

in the early days of hunting down PHA, the most common phenotype reported for it was upper spring of rib in heifers. doesn't mean it's true.

 

[JSchroeder]

I still haven't heard a reason PHA would be spread as much as it was if the only expression of the gene was negative.

 

[knabe]

upper spring of rib in heifers is theoretically not negative.  everyone wanted draft pick females, they probably still would to breed heat wave too or others that don't breed too much to the cow.  he used to be 10-15, then he got hot. 

 

[JSchroeder]

It's more a question for those that feel there is no expression of PHA other than dead calves.

 

[oakview]

I would like to see a photo of Paramount.  It seems as if he has been named as the 'source' of PHA, so I think it would be interesting to see a photo of him so I can compare it to the pictures I have seen of Cunia, Covino III, Capone, Epinal, Dollar II, etc., and see for myself what he had that the others didn't.  I have several old Maine magazines, but none of them have a photo of Paramount.  If you have one, I'd like to see it. 

 

[CAB]

"As far as my personal view that's worth no more than anyone else's, I don't care if they are aircraft carriers. If they are good I like them. If they are good I can sell them. The only performance number that really matters is your checking account. If carrier cattle can raise that number I think they are good. That doesn't mean not having full disclosure to buyers or any sort of cover up. I just think you can manage these genetic problems just as you can manage horned or polled. It's absolutely fine with me what ever you believe as far as carriers are concerned. Just don't get on some moral high horse because you are trying to better the breed or the american cow herd or what ever and someone else is trying to make money to make a living and feed their family".
(clapping) (clapping) <beer>, Ditto Gonewest!!




  I agree 100% with this paragraph, but I do want to also know 100% what my cows & bulls are as far as their TH/PHA status. Don't really care about the steers other than that they are good and have some grow in them. Brent

 

[CAB]

  Jill we bred some of our best Angus crossed females to IW last summer too and we are hoping for females of coarse. It has been mind boggling to me that more PPL aren't using IW more now that we have the test. For instance, it just doesn't make sense to breed Paddy O'Malley when for $30.00 you can breed to IW. We went back and used Double Stuff B/C no bull stamps as consistently as he did for $15.00. DS does bother me more than IW, but we'll test and decide. Double Vision may be a better choice for $50.00 carrying one trait instead of 2 & I think that his daughters milk better in general than DS's. By the time you pay for the extra defect test, you can almost swing the price difference. Until I can find bulls that are clean and breed better, we'll keep breeding predictability. There are alot of promising young clean bred bulls on the horizon. We all know it will take time to sort through them. It would be interesting to monitor the semen sales of Monopoly & All Aboard this next breeding season. Any guesses as to the differences # of units sold? I bet it would be mind boggling again.

 

[knabe]

I would like to see a photo of Paramount. 

there's a pic of him in the hall of fame section, under name the bull.

you could probably just type paramount under search.

 

[qbcattle]

"As far as my personal view that's worth no more than anyone else's, I don't care if they are aircraft carriers. If they are good I like them. If they are good I can sell them. The only performance number that really matters is your checking account. If carrier cattle can raise that number I think they are good. That doesn't mean not having full disclosure to buyers or any sort of cover up. I just think you can manage these genetic problems just as you can manage horned or polled. It's absolutely fine with me what ever you believe as far as carriers are concerned. Just don't get on some moral high horse because you are trying to better the breed or the american cow herd or what ever and someone else is trying to make money to make a living and feed their family".

This is exactly right and is the foundation of any business or industry, however a successful business or industry is successful because they are always looking for ways to keep the upper hand. It seems that for a while the upper hand was and possibly is in fact these two genetic disorders, but you cannot for one second make me believe that it is THE way to go in terms of producing the best quality animals  possible. Utilizing these disorders may have been right for the times and does still in fact have its place, but for the producer striving to get the upper hand, I am not sure if it is the way to go. Ask any coach or player of any game, ask any successful businessman or woman, the key to winning and the catalyst to bringing in the dough is consistency. This is where the problem lies in the club calf industry, for we do have the testing and the knowledge to avoid getting dead offspring from these disorders, but besides the fact that we are breeding crossbreds to crossbreds we added another producer of inconstancy in these gene disorders. My goal and i am sure it is the majority of you guys goals as well, but my goal is to go out into the pasture and look at my calf crop, whether it be 5 or 500 and have ABSOLUTE MINIMAL cull animals. If the only performance number that matters is your checking account than it would be wise to figure out a plan of action to get 10 top selling calves out of ten rather than 2-7 out of 10.

I am young and definitely do know know all the answers, if any for that matter, and i am not docking anyones business or way of thinking, but this industry as well as every other industry is not perfect. As a person that strives for perfection I am trying to inquire as much knowledge as i can to make that possible (even though i fully realize perfection is unattainable). And i find it hard to believe that a genetic disorder is going to get me any closer.

 

[GONEWEST]

Jeff, what are the bull lines you see that are more massive that are carriers if not the IW line?

QB, what makes you believe your can't have "10 out of 10" top selling calves that are TH carriers or out of TH carriers? I guess you could eliminate the need by raising Simmentals, but I just assumed we were talking about crossbred show cattle.

 

[qbcattle]

Gonewest i guess it is possible but the odds are definitely not in your favor. Breeding a carrier female to a free testing bull or visa versa you only have a fifty fifty chance of getting a carrier in the first place. And if what some people are saying that the only calves dominating the ring are carriers then you essentially have a fifty fifty chance of getting a calf that even has a chance....that is why i feel that when breeding carriers 10 out of 10 top end calves is highly unlikely.

 

[CAB]

In the clubbie world, a 50/50 chance would be outstanding IMO.

 

[qbcattle]

but that is just a fifty fifty chance of having one that carries the gene...and thats my point exactly! If the club calf industry is looking forward to %50 of a sellable calf crop then something needs to change. I just have a hard time being satisfied with those stats. Because if you are looking forward to getting %50 then that probably means you are used to getting less. It may be just me but when i put a straw in a cow to breed her i want to know that my odds are with me before that calf ever hits the ground. Thats just my opinion and can be taken with a grain of salt.