TH and PHA in correlation with quality

[GONEWEST]

.that is why i feel that when breeding carriers 10 out of 10 top end calves is highly unlikely.

But don't ya think that maybe that's better than no chance? Again, we're talking about crossbred show cattle.

 

[qbcattle]

Gonewest I guess the main deciding factor for a breeder that is in your location and one that is in mine would be hair. Where I am from the only major show that is not slick shear is Fort Worth. So if you do not feel that without this gene you can get a solid calf with great hair that is one thing. Is that kinda what your gettin at??

 

[simtal]

how come only the good lines get defects?

 

[kfacres]

they are the only ones who get used enough, and get linebred around to create a defect

 

[Jill]

If you are getting 5 out of 10 top end calves with ANY breed  from only 10 cows you are in the upper 1% of this industry.  I don't care whether you're breeding clubbies or the most consistant purebreds out there, you don't hit a home run every time you put in a straw of semen, if you did we would all be rich, if most of us get 2 top end calves out of 10 you're doing great and it has nothing to do with carrier status.

Jeff_Schroeder-PHA has been around for 30 years, I guess I'm missing how you think it spread so quickly?  Sorry to modify, but I wanted to add to this, some of the most maternal sires in the Maine breed are PHA+ and I would say that had more to do with them being used heavily than for the bone and mass, Draft Pick, Irish Whiskey etc are used to produce heifer/cows more so than the bull counterparts, if the big + for PHA is muscle mass in my mind it would be the other way around.

 

[JSchroeder]

Please don’t put words into my mouth, where did I even come close to implying that it spread quickly?  My point has been that a trait that you claim doesn’t have “any difference or benefits” other than dead calves would not spread in the gene pool but rather decrease over time.

If the only impact of it is negative as you have said, wouldn't it have naturally weeded itself out long ago?

 

[Show Heifer]

Jeff, if NATURE was the deciding factor then PHA/TH carriers WOULD BE eliminated. But since man has decided they "know best" they have prolonged the death of the carrier cattle. I honestly see no benefit in breeding carrier cattle.
In fact in angus (you did bring up that breed didn't you?), the FC and NH has been linked to POOR carcass quality (not quantity). They say FC meat is much like eating shoe leather, only much worse!
Man has decided to select cattle for beauty/looks. Nature would select for survivability, and being born with unfunctional back legs, or dead, doesn't work with that! Also since most of these calves have to be pulled or C-sectioned, ol'momma cow (which is a carrier, hence the deformed calf) would die in birth. Gotta love nature.

 

[JSchroeder]

But since man has decided they "know best" they have prolonged the death of the carrier cattle. I honestly see no benefit in breeding carrier cattle.

Yet again you act as if that is happening in vacuum.  Why has man kept them going if it’s an economically negative trait?

In fact in angus (you did bring up that breed didn't you?), the FC and NH has been linked to POOR carcass quality (not quantity).

5321 and 1680 didn’t become the big names they are because of their looks.

Man has decided to select cattle for beauty/looks.

Wait, so now you think there IS a link for PHA to “beauty/looks”?

 

[Show Heifer]

Oh never mind.... you obviously are just wanting to argue. And spend way too much time on the computer.  Go believe what you want to believe. 
Hey tell you what, instead of questioning all of us, why don't you supply us with YOUR wisdom... lead us oh wise one.

DL, I guess the water tank is empty.

 

[Jill]

The PHA is negative, it doesn't make the bulls that carry it negative, the only way it is a bad thing is if you end up breeding a carrier to a carrier and end up with a positive calf,  if you haven't ever had that happen why would you have stopped using the bull?  Many of the bulls people didn't know were carriers until just the last couple of years.  Irish Whiskey is a great (in my mind) bull, he isn't great because he is a carrier, Who Made Who is a great (in my mind) bull, he isn't great because he is a non carrier, I guess I'm missing what you are puzzled about, people aren't using these bulls BECAUSE they are PHA carriers.

 

[JSchroeder]

Show Heifer, despite disagreeing with you I showed you the respect of addressing your points and not throwing personal attacks at you or calling you names.  I’m sorry you have chosen to do otherwise because there’s no need for that type of stuff.

Jill, if you really believe it was just luck of the draw, I can’t argue with that.  I’m of the opinion that there’s almost always a cause behind the effect and I’m saying there is a link between why they are using them and the fact they are PHA carriers.

I was firmly in the “there’s no phenotype to it” camp at one time as well and understand your point.

 

[CAB]

It's really this simple. PPL use/used the carrier bulls because they LIKED the cattle. Unbeknownsed to them until the population got large enough so that by chance carriers were bred to carriers and we got enough positive calves to say hey wait a minute here this isn't just a random freak calf, I'm getting and hearing about more and more of them that we discovered that there was a genetic defective gene trait or 2/3. It took time to get the population large enough to multiply itself and it wasn't because PPL were trying to breed defective cattle but rather the cattle they they were breeding & liked happened to be carrying the defective gene along with the  traits that they liked. I think that there was NO conspiracy involved in the multiplication of #s. It is what it is and it will be here long after we're all dead unless the rules take a drastic change oh and no one breaks the rules. There it is, simple. JMO.

 

[knabe]

they are the only ones who get used enough, and get linebred around to create a defect

linebreeding doesn't create defects, it uncovers them.  it's my guess that outcrossing can create defects among other things.

 

[Telos]

I would think giving Jirl Buck a call would calm everyone down a bit.

He is the expert on this question and will shoot straight with you.

 

[CAB]

I would think giving Jirl Buck a call would calm everyone down a bit.

He is the expert on this question and will shoot straight with you.

It doesn't really matter other than the fact that I would love to hear another opinion, PPL are going to do what they are going to do, but it's always good for a healthy debate on the Planet & the other discussion boards.

 

[OH Breeder]

But since man has decided they "know best" they have prolonged the death of the carrier cattle. I honestly see no benefit in breeding carrier cattle.

Yet again you act as if that is happening in vacuum.  Why has man kept them going if it’s an economically negative trait?

In fact in angus (you did bring up that breed didn't you?), the FC and NH has been linked to POOR carcass quality (not quantity).

5321 and 1680 didn’t become the big names they are because of their looks.

Man has decided to select cattle for beauty/looks.

Wait, so now you think there IS a link for PHA to “beauty/looks”?

Jeff I am missing what you have said that is so inflammatory. I think the statements you have made are honest view points. I think sometimes that is what some folks forget. WIthout different view points this would be an awful boring world.

THis may be a limited viewpoint but, I bought 4 embryo's. They were out of a double carrier bull and clean cow. I had 5 calves out of the four eggs. I had three of the calves tested and lost two in birth. One heifer double clean and two heifers PHA positive. The bull calf that I lost was hairy and massive boned just like the triplets out of the same flush. The full sister to the triplets was finer made and flatter in her make up. The PHA carrier heifers had more bone and just tick more hair. They were more compact and had more rib shape and volume. I know its a Limited view

I think defect cattle more than not carrier more eye appealing traits for the show ring. I think because carrier cattle demonstrated these desirable show traits we were selecting them unknowingly. Carriers over non-carriers were selected more often propogating the defects. Now that we know the defects exist, some folks continue to select for desirable appearance first and carrier status second.

 

[oakbar]

I agree that if you are forewarned you can work with a genetic defect in female or two in your herd and get by pretty well.  However, I think any bull carrying the defective genes should be steered if for no other reason than some poor person who doesn't do their homework enough will end up with dead calves or worse yet a dead cow or two.  I have two TH females and we try to breed around their "problem".    If you want to use genetically defective bulls go right ahead but if you end up with 1/3 of your calf crop dead( like I did a few years ago)  it will probably change your mind in a hurry.  There are plenty of TH and PHA free bulls to use without taking a chance on a carrier bull.  JMHO

 

[shortdawg]

Hey I want to invite everyone to my farm to take a gander at my newly purchased TH, PHA, Curly Calf, and Monkey Mouth positive bull.  I know he's a carrier but he's never sired a defective calf.  We can all sing Kum Ba Yah and talk about the old times before there were any defects. 

 

[aj]

I would wager that not one commercial cow calf guy in the top 50 cow-calf states would accept the use of genetic defect carriers. The club calf calf deal is in its own universe so I guess it doesn't matter. I just don't see how purebred cattle can allow defects. If they do it is an indicator of their worth as non halter cattle. Really books could be written on the defect deal. Starting with St. Louis Lad and ending who knows where. We have such wonderfull technology now we do have better controll of stuff now. This is an amazing time....a milestone.

 

[JSchroeder]

You'd lose that wager as soon as you make it.  I personally know of two that bought all the carrier bulls from an Angus sale that didn't want to put run them through the ring.  They got a quality set of bulls that could easily be used on non Angus females at a discounted price.

There are plenty of cow calf people smart enough to know how to manage the defects.