TH and PHA in correlation with quality

[DLD]

I've gotta agree with Jeff on that.  I see quite a few succesful commercial breeders buying carrier bulls.
Apparently, just like the club calf and purebred breeders that continue to use these "defective cattle", they believe it's manageable. 

I'm not one that believes that all of the very best ones are carriers.  I do believe that the entire beef industry would be better off without 'em, but they're obviously not going to disappear anytime soon.  The great catastrophes that some were predicting to befall the whole industry tomorrow (if we didn't kill all the carriers, kill 'em tonight) were supposed to have happened last week, or maybe yesterday at the very latest, but they haven't happened yet... Apparently breeders are managing it somehow.

My personal opinion remains that every carrier bull from now on needs to get the knife, and the problem goes away.  So far it's not working out that way, but all I can control are the cattle I manage, so that's all I'm losing sleep over.

The biggest problem I'm seeing now is this - the more of these defects that are being talked about and tested for, the less the average Joe cares about 'em.  When sale catalogs are listing test results for three or more different defects, they start becoming just another footnote, and like listing 15 different epd's, they lose their impact on alot of folks.

 

[justintime]

I would like to see a photo of Paramount.  It seems as if he has been named as the 'source' of PHA, so I think it would be interesting to see a photo of him so I can compare it to the pictures I have seen of Cunia, Covino III, Capone, Epinal, Dollar II, etc., and see for myself what he had that the others didn't.  I have several old Maine magazines, but none of them have a photo of Paramount.  If you have one, I'd like to see it. 
[/quote

If I dig long enough I should be able to find a picture of Paramount. I saw Paramount many times, when he was alive, and from what I remember, he was more moderate framed than most of the other Maine sires of the day, a little feminine in his appearance and he was a bit tight wound. He did not have much capacity and guts. I used him a bit in that day, but was never impressed with the results I got. His calves were much like him, in that they were not great performance cattle, were wiry haired and nothing special. I am in the camp that having a PHA carrier adds no show ring or any other earthy value to any animal.

I also feel that those people who think you have to have a TH carrier to get " the look" are only using this as a crutch. In the Sullivan sale in October, there were only a handful of TH carriers in the sale. I overheard a couple of guys talking in the seats near where I was sitting prior to the sale starting. One of them appeared to be relatively new to the cattle business as these two men were discussing their selections from the catalog. One of them said" what does this THC mean in the footnote of this heifer" The other man replied," don't worry about that, it is nothing to consider".  I had a hard time restraining myself, but I did, as I did not think it was my place to make a scene in a public place like I felt like doing.

I have looked at hundreds and possibly thousands of TH carriers and compared them to even more non carriers. I have a few carriers in my herd yet. I hear people saying things like you can visibly pick out TH carriers. My response to that is... maybe some, but not all. Some people tell me that TH carriers all have a crest under their poll on their heads.... again, maybe some do, others don't. If you were to come to my place I will show you a couple of cows that have a visible crest under their poll that are THF and do not come from TH parents. I have looked and looked and with only a few very minor exceptions, I am convinced that you do not have to breed to TH carriers to get any of the traits you are wanting for the show ring. You may have to be more selective, but it can be done. I defy anyone to look at my cows and pick out which ones are the carriers. I have a couple of TH carriers that are slick hided and do not have enough hair for our climate. They are only here as they are recips. I have lots of non carrier cows that have hair like muskox. Look at the hair SULL GNCC Salute had. He is not a TH carrier, yet he himself had crazy hair and many of his offspring are the same. I'm sorry, you will never convince me, no matter how much you try, that breeding TH or PHA carriers is something you just have to do, in order to compete. Not happening!]

 

[DL]

oakbar - for you (very rational approach I might add

PARAMOUNT
Born April 28, 1973 (almost his b-day)
Bred by RTR & MM Howard of Matching, Essex , England
Owner by Robert A young of Alberta
Sired by Eclate out of Estafette
US semen distributed by Curtiss Breeding, Cary, IL

 

[knabe]

there is only one, ok two reasons for using paramount.

i will find out shortly if those reasons are valid using todays tools.

 

[oakview]

DL-Thanks for posting the photo of Paramount.  I had requested it earlier instead of Oakbar.  I know, sometimes people on here get us confused.  That's okay, I think he's a nice guy, too!  Anyway, a friend of mine e-mailed the same photo of Paramount yesterday.  I've studied it for quite some time, and can't see any reason why he might be more prone to siring show winners than many other bulls of the day.  In fact, I've decided that Cunia might be more likely to sire attractive show calves.  I just have to believe people used Paramount back in the day, got some calves they liked out of certain kinds of cows, and continued on with those genetics and the PHA came along for the ride.  I certainly can't tell by looking at the photo that Paramount would be in great demand today for show steers.

 

[GONEWEST]

Grant, I believe from reading your note about TH carriers you, like Oakbar, are talking about a different kind of competition than what most of the people in this discussion are referring to. Obviously TH is not a needed characteristic to win major Shorthorn breeding heifer shows. Neither is it needed to win major Simmental breeding female shows. Neither is it needed to win major Angus breeding cattle shows. However if you look at every major haired steer show in the US, the winners were sired by TH carrier bulls or out of TH carrier cows. There is absolutely no denying that. I'm not saying it SHOULD be that way or that is wouldn't be better if it WEREN'T that way, but only that it IS that way and you just can't deny that fact.

 

[justintime]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I do not remember Paramount making any kind of splash in the Maine breed or any other part of the Beef industry, when he was alive. In my opinion, he was a pretty ordinary sire, and his calves were even more ordinary. I used him a bit, as he was a decent calving sire, and I used him on some heifers and smaller framed cows. His semen was also a little cheaper priced, and some people would buy some of the more expensive sires and then add a cane or two of Paramount to their order, just for finishing up their AI breeding program. I cannot remember a Paramount sired calf that I had that was even halter broke or sold through a  breed sale. Mine were just market animals. They were nothing special at all. I am sure there were some good ones sired by him, but like any bull, if he gets used on enough cows, he is going to sire a few good ones.

As far as using TH and PHA carrier sires or dams, I am sure that almost everyone is smart enough to " manage " these defects in your herd. People who do this, in my opinion are only thinking about the present and not considering what kind of industry they are leaving for future generations. I am sorry, a bad defect of any kind should be eliminated from any beef breed. There are examples of defects that resulted in good traits in our cattle that have been propogated such as polled cattle, and that is a good thing. People seem to have very short memories. There have been defects appear for many many years. They are not a new deal. In the 70s and 80s, breed associations such as the Charolais and Simmental breeds pulled the registration papers on animals that were proven to be carriers of any defect and eliminated them  from the population. I remember when I was young my dad had a calf born with a cleft palate, and it was a Charolais calf born from a mating that occurred in a large community pasture. There were 2300 cows in this pasture and close to 100 bulls used. Our vet reported this calf to the Canadian Charolais Association, and they paid for the testing of all the bulls that were used, as well as the replacement costs of any carrier sires. In this case, two bulls tested positive, and they were slaughtered. They were replaced by two clean tested bulls and the cost was picked up by the Charolais breeders.  I can hardly imagine this kind of ethical approach happening today!

 

[CAB]

Grant, I believe from reading your note about TH carriers you, like Oakbar, are talking about a different kind of competition than what most of the people in this discussion are referring to. Obviously TH is not a needed characteristic to win major Shorthorn breeding heifer shows. Neither is it needed to win major Simmental breeding female shows. Neither is it needed to win major Angus breeding cattle shows. However if you look at every major haired steer show in the US, the winners were sired by TH carrier bulls or out of TH carrier cows. There is absolutely no denying that. I'm not saying it SHOULD be that way or that is wouldn't be better if it WEREN'T that way, but only that it IS that way and you just can't deny that fact.

I would add that if you are a PB breeder of any breed that if you are using carrier genetics, that you will find yourself without a market eventually. I can think of no other place than the haired showsteer deal that carriers are of any use. JMO

 

[DL]

oakVIEW- sorry I got my OAKS confused - I even went back to check but must have been the wrong post - maybe I'll have better luck with OB and OV!

 

[Telos]

Jerry Gibson a purebred Maine breeder used Paramount and his calves were not ordinary by anyone's standards. Many would make it to the showring. Jerry used many Maine sires, but often called me to come look at his Paramount calves. All the Paramount calves that were shown ended up PHA carriers.

 

[DL]

I have said this a billion time before but sometimes it seems it needs to be said again - if you are selling breeding stock using carrier genetics is a bad deal

telos - I hate to disagree with you, after all you turned me on the Feist, but the fullblood MA show cattle were few, far between, limited to a few breeders, and generally not exceptional animals in either type or kind - I was never overly impressed with the J&J cattle

 

[Telos]

DL = Truly some of those Paramounts were just freaky looking. Yes, Jerry did only have a handful of Partamount's but the carriers really stuck out like a sore thumb. They were well muscled and showed a lot of expression but not to a point of being double muscled. They were extremely chiseled up through their front end but not very deep middled. Structurally they were very straight made.

 

[knabe]

i have a pic of a direct daughter.  will see if i can post it tonight.  i thought she was pretty decent for how hard everyone hammers on him.

if something happens, i will buy her, carrier or not if possible.

 

[Telos]

DL...I've got a brand knew list of recording artist I'll try and shoot you an e-mail.

 

[Jill]

I guess what I am trying to say is in my mind there is no way to tell if a carrier calf is better because it is a PHA carrier or if that calf would have been better just because of the genetics it carries.

I think it would be very interesting to test all of the major show winners to see if they are actually TH carriers or not.  We are all assuming they have the look because they are carriers, but while they are out of carriers bulls it doesn't mean they themselves are carriers.

 

[aj]

Jeff...that is some pretty antedotal. It seems like the commercial-cow calf guy has a lot of different meanings. I am not talking about the guy with 3 teeth from west virginia. Most people in the top 5 cow states think this showring stuff is a joke. When I think of of a commercial cow calf guy I think in terms of someone who has 50 head of cows up to 12,000. These are college degreeded people who make a living with cows. To them th, and pha cattle are a joke used by hobbie people wanting to be play cowboy on weekends. I gauren-damn t they want no part of a genetic defect. People who dabble in all this genetic puke are a joke in these peoples eyes. I'm not saying there isn't money to be made in show cattle. People on here have a low opinion of the commercial people on here but it is they themselves that are a joke out side of the air conditioned show buildings.jmo This stuff doesn't go away by not keeping back carrier bulls the females keep the deal alive forever. That is such a stupid statement.

 

[JSchroeder]

You have no idea who I'm talking about, why would you make that "3 teeth from West Virginia" comment?  The last time I checked, Texas ranks pretty high amongst the cow calf producing states.

I'm talking about an operation that bought over 20 Angus bulls at one time, is from Texas, and has all their teeth.  I assumed you meant the Angus defects because very few cow-calf guys that meet your description will mess with anything like Maine or Shorthorn to begin with, not just TH and PHA cattle.  However, on the TH/PHA side, I do know of an operation that meets your criteria that didn't care one bit.  They had no Maine or Shorthorn blood and were using Maines for terminal sires.  

The idea that any set of cattlemen let alone all are a homogeneous group that all think alike is about as ignorant of cattlemen as you can get.

(BTW, while on the subject, you aren't going to make your entire living off of 50 cows in a commercial cow calf operation)

 

[JbarL]

interesting post.......i think ive seen it finally come full circle now....on my first visits to SP, the debate was if pha even existed .....and certain "individuals" here were more  updated/knowledgable/ and intuative about its existance and need for control than the association....my main concern then was becomming involved with a breed that its own association was behind the curve on what was happening to there breed compared to its members....as far as the show calves go, as long as the results and monies are determined by hair and bone, then pha an th are just what some are looking for....kinda like a huntin dog....a thousand dollar coon dog in ohio that chases deer isnt worth the food you put down its neck to some, ......in florida its worth two thousand dollars....so many poeple seemd to have got caught up in a pha herd without even knowing it that they now have to "manage" there way  in/out/or around it .......i was lucky enough to get enough info to make my decisions of a yr or so ago... ....either way it seems it will be a  monitored situation for all involved from here on .....those who  want to clean it up will, those who dont wont...thanks to those here who helped me make my decisions....jbarl

 

[DLD]

I guess what I am trying to say is in my mind there is no way to tell if a carrier calf is better because it is a PHA carrier or if that calf would have been better just because of the genetics it carries.

I think it would be very interesting to test all of the major show winners to see if they are actually TH carriers or not.  We are all assuming they have the look because they are carriers, but while they are out of carriers bulls it doesn't mean they themselves are carriers.

Well said, Jill.  I've seen a few with clean genetics that have plenty of hair, and all the look and power you could want.  Who's to say there wouldn't be more than a few if 90% of the club calf producers and 100% of the traders didn't think the Heat Wave line was the only thing out there?

When I agreed with Jeff about the commercial cattlemen buying defect carriers, I was talking about Angus too.  Here in OK (I'm pretty sure we rank somewhere in the top 50 cattle producing states  : ) Shorthorns aren't even considered by commercial producers - spend a little time at the sale barn and you'll see why.  There is a fair amount of Maine blood in alot of our commercial stuff, but there are only a handful of MA breeders in OK that target the commercial bull market, and all that I've talked to are  testing and cutting their carriers anyway. 

 

[Telos]

I do think "better" is a relative term and would not be able to tell you exactly what "better" really is, but strongly feel physical characteristics are associated with many genetic abnormalties. Down's Syndrome is one example. It comes with a certain look that only some people would perhaps agree is uniquely different from the norm. People, really do, want to see what they want to see and there is no way you can measure a particular look or be objective.