Canada Shorthorn People.

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kfacres

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Please give me the rundown on all the recent day (past 20 years or so) herd bulls north of the border that have been fabulous female makers- you know the deep, soggy, easy fleshing kind.  Don't have to be big boned, super stout, or any specific color.  Now worried about BW's either-- something to be used on cows, not heifers. 

Basically, a list of bulls that I would be looking for in the pedigrees of a potential bull to use AI. 
 

trevorgreycattleco

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IMO the deepest soggiest cattle up north very well may reside at Saskvalley and Muridale for what you want. Just a hillbillies opinion. Okotoks may have something to say about that or uluru. Good question.
 

kfacres

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trevorgreycattleco said:
IMO the deepest soggiest cattle up north very well may reside at Saskvalley and Muridale for what you want. Just a hillbillies opinion. Okotoks may have something to say about that or uluru. Good question.

Just what I was thinking.. Although I'm looking for specific bloodlines.. ALthough I imagine the whole herd is the same.. and it really, legit doesn't matter which one of the "7/8" brothers  you choose...  minor diffference here, minor difference there...  outcross cow here.. etc..  Am I wrong?

You know, those Candians have lived without MR. Imfamous for ever...  just curious to see who (which bulls) made it happen.  

Currently looking at the Saskvalley bull catalog online.... and the Ultra's appear to be super producers (also like the bull's pic).. but to me the secret tends to lie in the Najavo bull.  Real belly draggers, maybe that's why NPS bought him?

What about the Sherrif bull?  Any new reports on him?  Seems to have sired a great set of bulls... out of first calf heifers.
 

justintime

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I hesitate to even comment here as there are so many excellent herds here in Canada. I am not going to start naming excellent herds as some would get missed and that simply isn't fair. You have named two excellent herds here in Canada, namely the Muridale and Saskvalley herds, but there are many others. I have found excellent females in some relatively unknown and/or remote places. i would also add that there are some excellent herds from coast to coast in Canada.

I think we all see cattle slightly differently which I think gives the breed diversity and that is a good thing. We all don't need to be producing the same product and as long as we can survive and breed what we feel are the best we can, then I think it is a very good thing. What I will never understand are breeders who aren't really happy with where their herd is going, but they continue to do the same thing and hope for the results to change. I think there is a saying about people who continue to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

I am going to only mention two sire lines that I am a big believer in, and I want to say first of all, that there are several others that are also producing great cattle. I will also say here, that this thread is asking for sires that sire fabulous females. I will only say that I think the best sire lines not only sire great females, but great males as well.

The first I will comment on has already been mentioned and that is Saskvalley Navajo 153M. I am a believer in this bull for several reasons. First, he sires excellent offspring in both sexes. Secondly, and just as important, is that he possesses so many functional traits and qualities that are oftentimes forgotten about by many breeders today. When we purchased Saskvalley Pioneer 126P, his sire Navajo only further convinced us that Pioneer was going to be a breeding bull. Navajo has large testicles and his sons do as well. Pioneer measuerd 47cm at 23 months of age. Both bulls had large well formed feet and they were extremely sound structured ( ie  feet and legs ). They were very masculine and you knew at first glance that you were looking at a male animal.I believe that the most fertile females come from very masculine sires. I think too many breeds have lost masculinity in the bulls. Navajo's mother was in our herd until a couple months ago. She was Saskvalley Marianne 36H and she was IMO a model female. She was moderate framed, ultra smooth, easy fleshuing, and perfect uddered. She was very fertile but she was a very poor donor. That happens once in awhile. She never gave us a heifer calf, and we spent a fair pile of money trying to get some embryos from her. Cyclone Trace purchased a flush from her a few years ago, and they flushed her to Saskvalley Primo 40P. They got 3 embryos , one of which produced a heifer calf that sold for $19,000 in their 2010 production sale.

The second sire I will mention is a bull prioduced by OKotoks of SP fame, named Diamond Captain Mark 27C. 27C was years ahead of his time, and while he lived to be 12 years old, he was dead before his true value was recognized. As late as a couple months ago, Okotoks tried to sell semen in the US and he finally brought it back to Canada. IMO, this bull sires outstandiing females, and also sires some excellent bulls. I can honestly say that I have never saw a poor female from 27C. We have 5 daughters in our herd and they are all the type of females I want to raise. We plan of flushing more females to him in the future. Our main herd bull, Major Leroy is out of a 27C daughter so we are infusing this bloodline through him as well.
I am attaching a few pictures of Navajo 153M as a mature herdsire, his dam saskvalley marianne 36H asa 12 year old cow, and some Captain Mark 27C daughters in our herd. I am sure Okotoks can provide much more info on him and his offspring.
 

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kfacres

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Thank you JIT, for your thoughts...  the few times I have been north of the border, have not been to look at cattle- so what you say, I will believe.  I'm sure there are far many more herds, and far, far many more outstanding sires... but these are two of the more promoted herds down in the US, and the sires that I mentioned were some of the pictures that caught my eye on the websites. 

I agree with you in many of the points you bring up.. especially the one about mascuine males, vs productive dtrs. 

I'm still waiting on the Okotocs to answer... time will tell..

I will be researching his bull, off of his website, as I'm sure he's on there...

Now I guess, all I have to do- is find a bull available in the US, that combines these bulls (previously questioned) into an acceptable package...  and get cows stuck.
 

Jacob B

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Seen the Navajo bull that summer that he made it to nicks place.  My partner and I were both SO impressed with him as an individual.  That calf that nick sold in his sale this past fall is sure to be a real powerful cow, should have bought her for sure.  I will be mating to him for sure.
 

Okotoks

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mark tenenbaum

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Awfull lot of really goodlooking bulls at the last Whos Yo Daddy Sale: (A question posed on many occaisions in Wash DC -our Nations Capital-and down to  3rd hiest murder rate in the US) Sask Vally Vigilante put it toghether for me pretty well-HARK VOUS CANADIENS_ give me your worst silvousplait O0
 

Okotoks

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mark tenenbaum said:
Awfull lot of really goodlooking bulls at the last Whos Yo Daddy Sale: (A question posed on many occaisions in Wash DC -our Nations Capital-and down to  3rd hiest murder rate in the US) Sask Vally Vigilante put it toghether for me pretty well-HARK VOUS CANADIENS_ give me your worst silvousplait O0
The Saskvalley Vigilante 28U bull went to Munroe Lehne, Evergreen Lane Farms with an interest retained by Saskvalley. His twin brother Saskvalley Victor 27U sold to Alta Cedar Shorthorns and Luke Bowman.
I think you would find it hard to find many Canadian programs breeding for 4 or 5 frames.The more I study the trends I think a 6 to 7 frame is the optimum for our area. They still sell by the pound and a 750 lb calf at $1.10 ($825) still beings more than a 600 lb. calf at a $1.35 ($810). If you have retained ownership and feed them out you will probably get even more.
 

carl

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If you are looking for a Saskvalley bull to use AI that will put some guts and middle into your Shorthorns I would suggest Saskvalley Ramrod.  The Ultra and Navajo bulls that were mentioned here both bred very well for us but I really believe this is the most consistent sire we have ever used. I know that a lot of people haven't heard of this bull but we are breeding as many cows as we can to him. We have some semen at Hawkeye in Iowa.
 

kfacres

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Okotoks said:
mark tenenbaum said:
Awfull lot of really goodlooking bulls at the last Whos Yo Daddy Sale: (A question posed on many occaisions in Wash DC -our Nations Capital-and down to  3rd hiest murder rate in the US) Sask Vally Vigilante put it toghether for me pretty well-HARK VOUS CANADIENS_ give me your worst silvousplait O0
The Saskvalley Vigilante 28U bull went to Munroe Lehne, Evergreen Lane Farms with an interest retained by Saskvalley. His twin brother Saskvalley Victor 27U sold to Alta Cedar Shorthorns and Luke Bowman.
I think you would find it hard to find many Canadian programs breeding for 4 or 5 frames.The more I study the trends I think a 6 to 7 frame is the optimum for our area. They still sell by the pound and a 750 lb calf at $1.10 ($825) still beings more than a 600 lb. calf at a $1.35 ($810). If you have retained ownership and feed them out you will probably get even more.

If the frame 6 or 7 is built right, produces optimun, and looks the way one is supposed to look on necesssary roughage.. then they fit the bill.  More lb's equals more profit..

where the problem occurs down here.. is that those category of cattle, cannot, have not, and likely never will produce to the required checklist (for some breeders) who have chosen to knock off frame score to only lack a few pounds of end product but get there with a much smaller input cost. 
carl said:
If you are looking for a Saskvalley bull to use AI that will put some guts and middle into your Shorthorns I would suggest Saskvalley Ramrod.  The Ultra and Navajo bulls that were mentioned here both bred very well for us but I really believe this is the most consistent sire we have ever used. I know that a lot of people haven't heard of this bull but we are breeding as many cows as we can to him. We have some semen at Hawkeye in Iowa.
 

Is this the Saskvalley guy, or just a believer in the program?  I'm thinking I'd like to talk to the owner more in depth.
 

justintime

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Okotoks said:
I think you would find it hard to find many Canadian programs breeding for 4 or 5 frames.The more I study the trends I think a 6 to 7 frame is the optimum for our area. They still sell by the pound and a 750 lb calf at $1.10 ($825) still beings more than a 600 lb. calf at a $1.35 ($810). If you have retained ownership and feed them out you will probably get even more.


Our Canadian markets may be slightly different than US markets, but the basis is usually similar. I have never seen smaller framed cattle being discounted like they are right now. I had not been to the local auction market for some time, but stopped last week. I saw a set of 765 lb steers sell for $1.67/ lb. Another set of smaller framed steers weighing 545 average sold for $1.21. lb. My neighbour sold about 150 head recently, and he said his larger framed steers sold for the highest price he has ever received in his lifetime. I also commented that his bigger heifers sold for higher prices per pound than his smaller framed steers. For this reason, I think it will be harder to sell any frame 4-5.5 bulls here in Canada this spring. Guess this just means everyone has to raise what they can sell in their area.  I think there is going to the biggest supply of high quality Shorthorn bulls sell in Western Canada this year than in recent times.
 

mark tenenbaum

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I really liked the Vigilante bull in type-the idea is to take really thick clubby ones-and bring em up a notch-but with a calf they can have-I just dont want to jump off the edge of the cliff with broken record cattle-and birth wts-CE-are very important I dont want 5 and under frame-for the same reasons-so a 5.5-6 would be the logical outcome-which is what Im trying to produce-it takes  some clubby to achieve that down here-and have them look how I want them to look.I dont really want to post these-but they are examples-April hiefer who goes back to Huberdale PM Laura- in late December,March bull in late Oct-early nov. O0
 

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Okotoks

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justintime said:
Okotoks said:
I think you would find it hard to find many Canadian programs breeding for 4 or 5 frames.The more I study the trends I think a 6 to 7 frame is the optimum for our area. They still sell by the pound and a 750 lb calf at $1.10 ($825) still beings more than a 600 lb. calf at a $1.35 ($810). If you have retained ownership and feed them out you will probably get even more.


Our Canadian markets may be slightly different than US markets, but the basis is usually similar. I have never seen smaller framed cattle being discounted like they are right now. I had not been to the local auction market for some time, but stopped last week. I saw a set of 765 lb steers sell for $1.67/ lb. Another set of smaller framed steers weighing 545 average sold for $1.21. lb. My neighbour sold about 150 head recently, and he said his larger framed steers sold for the highest price he has ever received in his lifetime. I also commented that his bigger heifers sold for higher prices per pound than his smaller framed steers. For this reason, I think it will be harder to sell any frame 4-5.5 bulls here in Canada this spring. Guess this just means everyone has to raise what they can sell in their area.  I think there is going to the biggest supply of high quality Shorthorn bulls sell in Western Canada this year than in recent times.
JIT you are right the differential between the price per pound on small and bigger calves has shrunk dramitically this year.To be honest it never has made sense to me that the growthier calves that would gain better and be short keeps in the feedlot would be discounted so badly. I am guessing the price of corn makes those smaller lower performing calves just too expensive.The cattle industry tends to go from one extreme to the other, if you stay towards the middle you will probably be right more often than wrong.If you are planning a purebred program you had best be watching whats happening in the sale barns and feedlots. JMO
 

Okotoks

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mark tenenbaum said:
Awfull lot of really goodlooking bulls at the last Whos Yo Daddy Sale: (A question posed on many occaisions in Wash DC -our Nations Capital-and down to  3rd hiest murder rate in the US) Sask Vally Vigilante put it toghether for me pretty well-HARK VOUS CANADIENS_ give me your worst silvousplait O0

Je crois que vous trouverez plus de consistance dans Candaian shorthorns. Cela ressemble à un bon taureau que vous vendez à Kansas. Bonne chance avec lui!
 

r.n.reed

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Okotoks,I don't think Gussie would have appreciated you talking that way!
On the calf subject definitely the feeders think they have a better chance to make it with the heavier calves or at least lose less.From the cow calf end though more questions need to be answered.Were the calves the same age?How were they raised?What are the heifer development costs of the dams.What are the annual feed costs of the cows?Need a lot more info which will vary greatly from operation to operation before an informed decision can be made.
 

Okotoks

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r.n.reed said:
Okotoks,I don't think Gussie would have appreciated you talking that way!
On the calf subject definitely the feeders think they have a better chance to make it with the heavier calves or at least lose less.From the cow calf end though more questions need to be answered.Were the calves the same age?How were they raised?What are the heifer development costs of the dams.What are the annual feed costs of the cows?Need a lot more info which will vary greatly from operation to operation before an informed decision can be made.
You think Gussie might choke on his coffee! I am not bilingual, I cheated and used an intenet translation program so anyone that speaks french probably spewed their coffee! Speaking of Gussie his grandaughter Kara stayed at our place last night, she is already in high school!
You are right about all the inputs but seems to me the cows that maintain their condition while raising the bigger calves are going to be the ones that are efficient. The new technologies that let you get feed conversions are going to become more important. The margins in the feedlots are way to slim to ignore costs of gain and that carcass better be what the packing house wants. The cow calf operator is going to have to select the cow size that siuts his grazing conditions but those calves better be able to convert  and get to market efficiently.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Okotoks said:
mark tenenbaum said:
Awfull lot of really goodlooking bulls at the last Whos Yo Daddy Sale: (A question posed on many occaisions in Wash DC -our Nations Capital-and down to  3rd hiest murder rate in the US) Sask Vally Vigilante put it toghether for me pretty well-HARK VOUS CANADIENS_ give me your worst silvousplait O0

Je crois que vous trouverez plus de consistance dans Candaian shorthorns. Cela ressemble à un bon taureau que vous vendez à Kansas. Bonne chance avec lui!////  OOH LA LA-Clubby Papa-6 a la frame parsqe grand ma ma -My attempt at saying-the red one is CE-but will be a 6 (hopefully) cuz his dam was a ton cow-Thanx for la francais-havent attempted it in some time. O0 O0 (clapping)
 
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