knabe
Well-known member
like the global warming crowd? belief is a word reserved for religion.
Irish Whiskey
- Thread starter Jill
- Start date
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Frostbite -- you have a right to your beliefs and I have never said you didn't. You can keep and sell carriers. I truly do not care what you do AND I CERTAINLY DO NOT GIVE A DARN IF YOU AGREE WITH ME - actually I prefer that you don't
These are my views - YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHARE THEM - in fact I would be shocked if you did. Why you think you have to agree with me is beyond me and appears to be as SRU would say your P-A issue - give it a rest. I would be more than happy to actually read your views rather than your recurrent post about having to agree with me. WHAT ARE YOUR BELIEFS? WHY DON'T YOU SHARE THEM WITH US???
THESE ARE MINE - MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THEM BEFORE - IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ THEM DON'T!
Many of you are aware that I have been intimately involved with the PHA gene hunt almost since it first reared its ugly head in a public way. This effort involved not only education and writing articles, but also obtaining samples, encouraging people to submit ears from PHA calves & pedigrees, talking with veterinarians across the US etc. This experience provided me with some of the best and the worst in our breed, as far as people and behavior goes, and what follows is my interpretation of the ride.
As you may be aware the first step in identifying the gene that carries the defect is developing an informed pedigree. An informed pedigree is developed by obtaining samples from many generations surrounding a known affected animal. Since Draft Pick had the best pedigree and was the most used of the 3 “original in recent history” identified PHA carriers, Draft Pick’s pedigree was used. The more members of the pedigree you have the easier it is to identify the gene (in theory) – so it was crucial to obtain as many DP daughters and sons as possible. Many people provided samples in an expeditious fashion – however, 2 AMAA board members failed to provide requested samples in a timely fashion, in some cases resulting in Dr B proceeding without the samples because the wait was already long. Now clearly only the people who were slow to provide samples can provide an explanation, and clearly people have reinvented themselves since the PHA test is now available, so maybe even they don’t know why, but my interpretation of their behavior does not suggest that at that moment they had the best interests of the breed at heart. If they did they would have provided those samples ASAP – after all how hard is it to send a straw of semen or ask someone to bleed the your cow that is at an ET facility?
However, many people at their own expense provided samples, raided their semen tanks, drove hundreds of miles to take PHA calves for necropsy and did whatever they could to provide Dr B with necessary information to create an informed pedigree. Many people spent countless hours looking for specific semen, on the phone, on the internet, contacting all sorts of people who might provide a clue – IMHO these people had the best interest of the breed in mind.
Griswold was the first person to publicly acknowledge that his bull Irish Whiskey was a PHA carrier – while I don’t much personally like his philosophy (at least he has one) and I applaud him for coming clean way way before anyone even thought about admitting publically that the bull they syndicated or the bull they were promoting was a carrier. At the time there was much concern from breeders about what bull to use and there was much denial from owners of now known carriers that they had ever had a PHA calf. Now of course if you only used your PHAC bull on Angus cows that actually could be true. But the number of people who told me they had a PHA calf and dumped it boggles the mind. As it became clear that the gene had been identified and a test was on the horizon other bull owners (IMHO) reluctantly identified their bulls as carriers.
Don Coover was the first person to publicly print in his catalog the TH and PHA results of bull he sold semen on. He took a lot of flack from bull owners and probably lost some money, but he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. His decision was based on an incident where a child lost both her heifer and her heifer’s first calf to PHA. You can’t tell me one incident can’t have an impact.
Many people, Gypsy and Jay Crull to name a few, ended up with a bunch of high dollar carriers when all they wanted to do was improve their herd. Their experiences, and those of others, lead us to better understand the pathogenesis of PHA. We now know that PHA very often leads to early abortion, that the calves are often born weeks early and assumed to be AI sired, when in fact they are bull bred, that the fluid accumulation begins somewhere around 5 or 6 months gestation, and Gypsy’s recent experience suggests that fertility may indeed be affected. Unlike TH, where the affected gene is known to be involved in hind limb development (and probably hair) and there appears to be a TH carrier phenotype, there does not appear to be a PHA phenotype. The gene and it’s function are known but not yet public knowledge, and the relationship between PHA and the known function of the gene is not readily apparent. The complete pathogenesis of the defect is not yet understood, but there are wide and varied histopathological abnormalities.
There were of course many reports of many bulls siring PHA calves, and many people across the country provided calf samples and semen samples. Dr Coover provided many samples, including some from a highly promoted Angus bull said to have sired several PHA calves. Because the breeders and the vet cared enough to submit samples from the calf and the dam, and Don provided semen on the bull in question, Dr B was able to exonerate this Angus bull because he did not parentally verify. It was a concerted effort on the part of concerned breeders and their veterinarians that allowed Dr B to get the info he needed.
I have to applaud Lautner for his latest catalog – not only is it nicely designed but he has included both PHA and TH results. Do I think he should/could have done it sooner – sure, but he has made the effort and the information is available. I also have to applaud Jirl Buck – he is castrating all his carrier bulls – this is a step in the right direction (again IMHO).
I must take issue with the Rowe sale catalog opinion that “it is undeniably also true….the percentage of carrier calves among the best calves – the most desirable ….is consistently higher than the percentage of carriers in the general population”. They are certainly entitled to their opinion, but in my opinion that is a self-serving statement by a group that has a high percentage of carrier genetics. It is unclear to me how carrying a recessive gene for a lethal defect makes you the best.
Many of us went thru many agonizing times prior to identification of the gene and developing the test. After a little research (where I discovered that a cow taken to a major U for a c-section a mere 4 years ago had a fetal monster that we now know as PHA) I found that the “free semen” I had used on the cows with the last chance had a 50% chance of being a PHA carrier – I had to do a lot of soul searching and decided I couldn’t sell the fabulous heifer I was sure was a carrier to the kid who was willing to pay me more than I had ever gotten for a heifer. It didn’t seem right. It was my decision so I could sleep at night. Once the test was available turns out the fabulous heifer is clean but her ugly duckling relative is a carrier. After again much soul searching I realized that I couldn’t sell her either and made her a recip – she is currently carrying an egg. If and when she no longer takes an egg she will go directly to the kill floor. I will not sell carriers to other breeders or to kids. I couldn’t sleep at night if I did. You can chose to do what you want, but I have made my decision.
With the exception of the recip, I have the luxury of having a totally clean herd of both PHA and TH – therefore my approach is likely different than others. I will not use carrier genetics – I think it is bad for the breed. I think the fastest way to clean up the mess is to not use carrier genetics – this is not feasible for many with carrier cows. But using and selling carrier bulls is certainly a great way to propagate the defect. I doubt that breeders are interested in that, multipliers might be, but not breeders.
I think testing and reporting the results is certainly one step in the right direction, but I also think a large number of people don’t get it and end up buying problems they didn’t expect. Many people still don’t understand – one of my favorite examples of not getting it is the question of how could this animal have a PHA calf her sire is clean (well how about her crossbred dam??) or the recent question is Draft Pick a known carrier of PHA? Although we have done a lot to educate people, there are many who are unaware. As a breeder and a veterinarian I feel compelled not to propagate genetic defects – it is my approach, what you do is your business.
I did not begin posting to make friends or have a substitute for life – I did find some interesting perspectives and some interesting people. As with all controversial topics if people felt uncomfortable or thought about a different view then we were successful.
I have ultimately enjoyed the ride – recently I received an email about a potential PHA calf in a totally other breed – this resulted from my interaction with a vet in another state who had a student when he c-sectioned their first PHA calf. The student was doing a rotation in another state when they c-sectioned a registered cow carring a registerable (if it had lived) calf. The word is getting out. It would be genetically fascinating if this calf proves to have the defect and there is a third PHA mutation.
I have lost a job over this issue (is it a job if you aren't paid?), I have been threatened, intimidated (well they tried), and lost some acquaintances - but I have not lost a single friend, in fact I have gained a few. I have helped 4Hers with projects, 4H dads with breeding, breeders with breeding, and people too numerous to count with information on testing, sires etc. I have no regrets and I believe that eventually honest breeders with the best interests of the breed will prevail - one only has to look historically at dwarfism in cattle - My email is [email protected]
DL
These are my views - YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHARE THEM - in fact I would be shocked if you did. Why you think you have to agree with me is beyond me and appears to be as SRU would say your P-A issue - give it a rest. I would be more than happy to actually read your views rather than your recurrent post about having to agree with me. WHAT ARE YOUR BELIEFS? WHY DON'T YOU SHARE THEM WITH US???
THESE ARE MINE - MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THEM BEFORE - IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ THEM DON'T!
Many of you are aware that I have been intimately involved with the PHA gene hunt almost since it first reared its ugly head in a public way. This effort involved not only education and writing articles, but also obtaining samples, encouraging people to submit ears from PHA calves & pedigrees, talking with veterinarians across the US etc. This experience provided me with some of the best and the worst in our breed, as far as people and behavior goes, and what follows is my interpretation of the ride.
As you may be aware the first step in identifying the gene that carries the defect is developing an informed pedigree. An informed pedigree is developed by obtaining samples from many generations surrounding a known affected animal. Since Draft Pick had the best pedigree and was the most used of the 3 “original in recent history” identified PHA carriers, Draft Pick’s pedigree was used. The more members of the pedigree you have the easier it is to identify the gene (in theory) – so it was crucial to obtain as many DP daughters and sons as possible. Many people provided samples in an expeditious fashion – however, 2 AMAA board members failed to provide requested samples in a timely fashion, in some cases resulting in Dr B proceeding without the samples because the wait was already long. Now clearly only the people who were slow to provide samples can provide an explanation, and clearly people have reinvented themselves since the PHA test is now available, so maybe even they don’t know why, but my interpretation of their behavior does not suggest that at that moment they had the best interests of the breed at heart. If they did they would have provided those samples ASAP – after all how hard is it to send a straw of semen or ask someone to bleed the your cow that is at an ET facility?
However, many people at their own expense provided samples, raided their semen tanks, drove hundreds of miles to take PHA calves for necropsy and did whatever they could to provide Dr B with necessary information to create an informed pedigree. Many people spent countless hours looking for specific semen, on the phone, on the internet, contacting all sorts of people who might provide a clue – IMHO these people had the best interest of the breed in mind.
Griswold was the first person to publicly acknowledge that his bull Irish Whiskey was a PHA carrier – while I don’t much personally like his philosophy (at least he has one) and I applaud him for coming clean way way before anyone even thought about admitting publically that the bull they syndicated or the bull they were promoting was a carrier. At the time there was much concern from breeders about what bull to use and there was much denial from owners of now known carriers that they had ever had a PHA calf. Now of course if you only used your PHAC bull on Angus cows that actually could be true. But the number of people who told me they had a PHA calf and dumped it boggles the mind. As it became clear that the gene had been identified and a test was on the horizon other bull owners (IMHO) reluctantly identified their bulls as carriers.
Don Coover was the first person to publicly print in his catalog the TH and PHA results of bull he sold semen on. He took a lot of flack from bull owners and probably lost some money, but he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. His decision was based on an incident where a child lost both her heifer and her heifer’s first calf to PHA. You can’t tell me one incident can’t have an impact.
Many people, Gypsy and Jay Crull to name a few, ended up with a bunch of high dollar carriers when all they wanted to do was improve their herd. Their experiences, and those of others, lead us to better understand the pathogenesis of PHA. We now know that PHA very often leads to early abortion, that the calves are often born weeks early and assumed to be AI sired, when in fact they are bull bred, that the fluid accumulation begins somewhere around 5 or 6 months gestation, and Gypsy’s recent experience suggests that fertility may indeed be affected. Unlike TH, where the affected gene is known to be involved in hind limb development (and probably hair) and there appears to be a TH carrier phenotype, there does not appear to be a PHA phenotype. The gene and it’s function are known but not yet public knowledge, and the relationship between PHA and the known function of the gene is not readily apparent. The complete pathogenesis of the defect is not yet understood, but there are wide and varied histopathological abnormalities.
There were of course many reports of many bulls siring PHA calves, and many people across the country provided calf samples and semen samples. Dr Coover provided many samples, including some from a highly promoted Angus bull said to have sired several PHA calves. Because the breeders and the vet cared enough to submit samples from the calf and the dam, and Don provided semen on the bull in question, Dr B was able to exonerate this Angus bull because he did not parentally verify. It was a concerted effort on the part of concerned breeders and their veterinarians that allowed Dr B to get the info he needed.
I have to applaud Lautner for his latest catalog – not only is it nicely designed but he has included both PHA and TH results. Do I think he should/could have done it sooner – sure, but he has made the effort and the information is available. I also have to applaud Jirl Buck – he is castrating all his carrier bulls – this is a step in the right direction (again IMHO).
I must take issue with the Rowe sale catalog opinion that “it is undeniably also true….the percentage of carrier calves among the best calves – the most desirable ….is consistently higher than the percentage of carriers in the general population”. They are certainly entitled to their opinion, but in my opinion that is a self-serving statement by a group that has a high percentage of carrier genetics. It is unclear to me how carrying a recessive gene for a lethal defect makes you the best.
Many of us went thru many agonizing times prior to identification of the gene and developing the test. After a little research (where I discovered that a cow taken to a major U for a c-section a mere 4 years ago had a fetal monster that we now know as PHA) I found that the “free semen” I had used on the cows with the last chance had a 50% chance of being a PHA carrier – I had to do a lot of soul searching and decided I couldn’t sell the fabulous heifer I was sure was a carrier to the kid who was willing to pay me more than I had ever gotten for a heifer. It didn’t seem right. It was my decision so I could sleep at night. Once the test was available turns out the fabulous heifer is clean but her ugly duckling relative is a carrier. After again much soul searching I realized that I couldn’t sell her either and made her a recip – she is currently carrying an egg. If and when she no longer takes an egg she will go directly to the kill floor. I will not sell carriers to other breeders or to kids. I couldn’t sleep at night if I did. You can chose to do what you want, but I have made my decision.
With the exception of the recip, I have the luxury of having a totally clean herd of both PHA and TH – therefore my approach is likely different than others. I will not use carrier genetics – I think it is bad for the breed. I think the fastest way to clean up the mess is to not use carrier genetics – this is not feasible for many with carrier cows. But using and selling carrier bulls is certainly a great way to propagate the defect. I doubt that breeders are interested in that, multipliers might be, but not breeders.
I think testing and reporting the results is certainly one step in the right direction, but I also think a large number of people don’t get it and end up buying problems they didn’t expect. Many people still don’t understand – one of my favorite examples of not getting it is the question of how could this animal have a PHA calf her sire is clean (well how about her crossbred dam??) or the recent question is Draft Pick a known carrier of PHA? Although we have done a lot to educate people, there are many who are unaware. As a breeder and a veterinarian I feel compelled not to propagate genetic defects – it is my approach, what you do is your business.
I did not begin posting to make friends or have a substitute for life – I did find some interesting perspectives and some interesting people. As with all controversial topics if people felt uncomfortable or thought about a different view then we were successful.
I have ultimately enjoyed the ride – recently I received an email about a potential PHA calf in a totally other breed – this resulted from my interaction with a vet in another state who had a student when he c-sectioned their first PHA calf. The student was doing a rotation in another state when they c-sectioned a registered cow carring a registerable (if it had lived) calf. The word is getting out. It would be genetically fascinating if this calf proves to have the defect and there is a third PHA mutation.
I have lost a job over this issue (is it a job if you aren't paid?), I have been threatened, intimidated (well they tried), and lost some acquaintances - but I have not lost a single friend, in fact I have gained a few. I have helped 4Hers with projects, 4H dads with breeding, breeders with breeding, and people too numerous to count with information on testing, sires etc. I have no regrets and I believe that eventually honest breeders with the best interests of the breed will prevail - one only has to look historically at dwarfism in cattle - My email is [email protected]
DL
OH Breeder
Well-known member
This may not be a popular opinion, but if you believe in change you have to believe people can change. If you don't believe that people can change then you yourself are not willing to change. The deal with PH is a huge undertaking. Large groups of people and or organizations are slow to adopt policies and change practice. I have worked in the medical field since I was a teenager. Yes, medicine has changed but are physicians always willing to change their practice NO. Many times we would tell patients, stop smoking, quit drinking eat right and loose weight- this coming from an overweight, smoking, drinking cardiologist. So, with that being said, I would like to see more positives for those people who have made a statement/acknowledgement whether we agree or not. By acknowleding the problem shows they are on the road to change. We can teach dogs new tricks, there are doctors willing to try the new therapy that saves life and there are people who are willing to change practice when dealing with PH.
I do not have to tell anyone my views on carriers unless they are a customer. I can sleep at night too. Yes most have read your Very Humble Opinions but just wondering with all your education cant you come up with something new. Why when your view is kill all carriers you stand behind Dr. Coover when he is selling semen on carriers still? By the way that's MR. Frostbite to you.
shorthorns r us
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 900
frostback said:
Here goes by best Dr. Phil imitation.
Mr. Frostback,
What new are you looking for?
DL,
Is it your opinion that all carriers should be Killed? Apparently I understand your view on this point differently than Mr. Frostback.
shorthorns r us
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 900
justme said:
i think jerry springer is what we have now. no, it's not quite that bad; more like maury povich. i think this entire community would benefit from a shift toward dr. phil. heck, i'd settle for phil donahue.
knabe
Well-known member
we need a new gene hunt in the positive and spend all this energy finding new ways for people to use maines.
i'm doing it. just wait. no wait, please don't wait, do something.
i'm doing it. just wait. no wait, please don't wait, do something.
Jill
Well-known member
To be real honest, I thought it was a suprising move with the Exposure sale coming in a month, it hasn't been that long ago we talked about flushing to him at a 3-5 hundred dollar cost.justme said:
Show Heifer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
frostbite: why is it you preach tolerance for your views, yet will not tolerate another view that is different from your own? And just out of wonderment: what makes you think your carriers are worth 3-5000??? Are you sure frostbite?
As you pointed out, frostbite, I have read Ms.DLs' opinion from day one, and I agree with her. Although I don't agree with her all the time on some issues. As Mr.Knabe, pointed out, carriers in the commercial cattlemans herd will devistate the maine breed. A commercial cattleman doesn't care if cow #465 is a great granddaughter of some champion somewhere. A commercial cattleman doesn't care if #842 has a name of Rosy. A commercial cattleman does care if a cow calves. A commercial cattleman does care if the calf is alive. A commercial cattleman DARN well cares if someone screwed him by selling him cattle that carry a LETHAL genetic defect. And a commercial cattleman have DARN long memories.
I have to wonder why all you people (not nessecararly meaning YOU) use carriers when some of the top herds in the country have decided not to...why is it good enough for them, yet not for you?????
And I stand by my statement: Folks that use carriers are trying to create a purple ribbon animal.
Folks that do not use carriers are trying to create a HERD of cows.
So....as I have said many times before: breed to carriers if you wish, heck, sell them if you want, but do it honestly. And don't pull the "I didn't think to test the carrier bloodline heifer/bull" crap, buy at your own risk.
Ms. Jill, you mentioned at one time you were thinking of flushing to IW...did you decide to, or go another route?? Just wandering....
Mr/Ms SRU.....your Dr. Phil imitation was great!!!! (clapping)
And with that, I sign off,
Ms.Show Heifer.
As you pointed out, frostbite, I have read Ms.DLs' opinion from day one, and I agree with her. Although I don't agree with her all the time on some issues. As Mr.Knabe, pointed out, carriers in the commercial cattlemans herd will devistate the maine breed. A commercial cattleman doesn't care if cow #465 is a great granddaughter of some champion somewhere. A commercial cattleman doesn't care if #842 has a name of Rosy. A commercial cattleman does care if a cow calves. A commercial cattleman does care if the calf is alive. A commercial cattleman DARN well cares if someone screwed him by selling him cattle that carry a LETHAL genetic defect. And a commercial cattleman have DARN long memories.
I have to wonder why all you people (not nessecararly meaning YOU) use carriers when some of the top herds in the country have decided not to...why is it good enough for them, yet not for you?????
And I stand by my statement: Folks that use carriers are trying to create a purple ribbon animal.
Folks that do not use carriers are trying to create a HERD of cows.
So....as I have said many times before: breed to carriers if you wish, heck, sell them if you want, but do it honestly. And don't pull the "I didn't think to test the carrier bloodline heifer/bull" crap, buy at your own risk.
Ms. Jill, you mentioned at one time you were thinking of flushing to IW...did you decide to, or go another route?? Just wandering....
Mr/Ms SRU.....your Dr. Phil imitation was great!!!! (clapping)
And with that, I sign off,
Ms.Show Heifer.
frostback said:
APPARENTLY YOU MISINTERPRETED MY VIEW MR FROSTBITE (sorry gender with gender neutral names is difficult, my humble apologies)
MY VIEW IS NOT TO KILL ALL CARRIERS
CERTAINLY THE QUICKEST WAY TO GET RID OF A GENETIC DEFECT IS TO "KILL ALL CARRIERS" BUT THAT IS NEITHER PRACTICAL OR FINANCIALLY REASONABLE.
If you are going to interpret my view do it accurately, I'll do the same with your name Mr Frostbite. And thanks for sharing your views - do you want to talk about Johne's disease?? What is your view on Johne's disease or is that private too??
I dont preach any thing and you dint know my views because its my business and I dont state them every time there is a post about something that can be turned into a PHA editorial. Its the views of people that tell me to sell my cattle because they think that is the right thing to do without knowing how devastating that could be. I have 20 some years in my herd that I bought with money I made washing dishes and mowing lawns. Most my cows still go back to those genetics. I know what these cows can do because they have done it for years, that's how I know they are worth that. I know what cows with like breeding are selling for that's how I know what they are worth. People that bring stuff up just to further there cause is what bugs me, and yes I will stand up for my friends too.I dont breed with what ever is popular, I breed cattle to pay the bills which not to many people have the guts to say. I dont care what the maine breed does. I dont sell bulls or replacement females. I will do what I need to do for my family. Take that for what you want and twist it any way you can to make yourself feel better but I DO SLEEP AT NIGHT JUST FINE.
shorthorns r us
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 900
cornbread said:
Cornbread,
I must have missed your intelligent response to Knabe's post. I am sure it was enthralling. I hope to find it or maybe you could re-post the evidence of your unique comment.
Show Heifer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,221
frostbite: this board is for the exchange of ideas and opinions. That is its sole purpose. If you wish not to participate in that purpose, then why bother to visit at all, let alone post? And by your post, I assume (dangerous I know) that you sell only spayed heifers and steers for showing (no prelacement stock)? And I am glad you know your genetic base of your cows...probably knew about PHA/TH long before others did due to that fact!
Maybe this is too "personal" to share also (you stated you don't express your opinion) but if you don't use popular genetics, what maine bulls do you use? What is the genetic base of your cows? Just curious...I hate following the popular trail too!
Maybe this is too "personal" to share also (you stated you don't express your opinion) but if you don't use popular genetics, what maine bulls do you use? What is the genetic base of your cows? Just curious...I hate following the popular trail too!
I do participate but not to the point that I answere every post or the same ones repeatedly. Yes I only sell steers and the heifers go to a friends feedlot and then only to slaughter. Or the ones I do sell are tested or free by pedigree. Isn't that the way I am supposed to do it? I did know about Th and Pha early but not by personal experience. I had one mild case of TH but the pedigree was not clubby at all. Did not know it was TH for years after. I guess I should have worded the next different, I do use popular genetics but not because of who else is using them. I use them because they fit me and my herd.
The genetic base of my herd is all over the board we have about 8 breeds or crosses from them.
The genetic base of my herd is all over the board we have about 8 breeds or crosses from them.
Mr Frostbite - That sounds like an absolutely excellent plan and I applaud you - I am sure you can sleep at night - why wouldn't you - you seem to be doing the right thing by your family, by your herd and by your customers. Hats off to you! (It is a BFLO Sabres hat, BTW)
In regards to the case of TH you referred to - the ASA kept that under wraps for over 15 years - why would you possibly know what it was? Was't til last year that OSU realized that the fetal monster was really PHA calf. There is lots of stuff we don't know - one of the beauties of this board is the wide range of knowledge and opinions - I can always find a tidbit in almost anything anybody says (although I admit I get sick of hair! ;D
Now on to a different topic - I noticed the maple leaf - are you Canadian?? Are you a hockey fan??
I hope you have a great day, I am recovering from being squished by a very big bovine - I hope not to laugh, sneeze or cough ;D DL
In regards to the case of TH you referred to - the ASA kept that under wraps for over 15 years - why would you possibly know what it was? Was't til last year that OSU realized that the fetal monster was really PHA calf. There is lots of stuff we don't know - one of the beauties of this board is the wide range of knowledge and opinions - I can always find a tidbit in almost anything anybody says (although I admit I get sick of hair! ;D
Now on to a different topic - I noticed the maple leaf - are you Canadian?? Are you a hockey fan??
I hope you have a great day, I am recovering from being squished by a very big bovine - I hope not to laugh, sneeze or cough ;D DL
CAB
Well-known member
It's amazing, but more than likely the talk about Galaway, Highlanders, & the Luing cattle lately has all been about hair mostly. I'm guilty. That's the only reason that I am curious about the breeds, when it should be about a varity of other more economically important traits, but I hate to really add this, it is like Frostback says, it is what is selling for us "clubbie" people. I am curious to know what you all think about the Luing's & Highland cattle being comfie in Tx. I had a couple of hairy clubbie babies that were absolutely miserable this past summer. This is the first year that I have had calves visibly suffer from their hair coat. Some clubbie producers are clipping calves early summer. I agree that breeding for hair in parts of the country doesn't make any sense, but I still watch for hair. Sorry to disappoint some or many possibly.
knabe
Well-known member
humility? excellent. worth a karma point.
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