20 million illegal aliens

[kimbaljd]

I bet people will be all over that last comment.

Is there not something in the Bible that say we should obey the laws of man?
Well them coming here illegally is breaking the law.
And, you said "send the criminals back"????

 

[TJ]

I bet people will be all over that last comment.

Is there not something in the Bible that say we should obey the laws of man?
Well them coming here illegally is breaking the law.
And, you said "send the criminals back"????

I agree.  From a Biblical point of view, we should be compassionate to all.  But, that doesn't mean that in doing that, we can't or shouldn't ship the illegals back across the border.  We shouldn't judge people, but we can for sure judge the crime.  Being an illegal allien means that they did something illegal to get here. 

 

 

[kimbaljd]

Thats the way I was taught the Bible. I am a compassionate person and feel for the Mexican people. I completely understand why they want to come here to the USA. I have no problem with them coming legally here. I think they are in general a great group of people. They have their problem people just like any other race.

 

[shortdawg]

I'm fine with people being all over that last comment. I usually don't get involved in these types of posts but, that is the way I feel. I work with these people everyday. Not all of them are illegal. I'm just saying they are stereo-typed without actually knowing them personally. I've known some that were bad but most are great people. They contribute a lot to our community. If you eat a veggie or a piece of fruit in your local restaurant, more than likely it was harvested by a hispanic. We pay at least an extra half a cent per pound of watermelons harvested to get legals. That doesn't sound like a lot of $$$ unless you ship about 5 million pounds a year like we do. You do the math !!!!! As far as the scripture reference goes, if you want to be technical, pick up a bible and read on through verse 5 of Matthew Chapter 7. I have no ill will toward anyone on this board but I am entitled to have my opinion so there it is.  

 

[TJ]

Shortdawg, I can see your point & it is a passage that we all need to apply to our lives. 

I have nothing against Hispanics in general & prejudice against them is wrong.  However, as far as illegals go...

Romans 13:1-7... "1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

Of course, this applies to Christians, but it does point out that the Govt has every right to enforce it's laws & illegals are breaking the law. 

Also, we as Christians are required to pay stupid taxes (like the "unmined" coal tax that I pay!!) & fill out stupid Ag census forms (I hate those things!!), etc.  I respect the Mennonites & the Amish, but any of them who do not pay taxes based soley on their religious beliefs are being disobient to the Word of God (that's not judging, that is a fact, based on Romans 13). 

The only exception to obeying the Govt, is if the Govt asks us or requires us to do something that would be displeasing to God.  However, the Bible never says that we can't or shouldn't fight to change the laws, etc. (I believe that we should fight stupid laws & we should always stand up for what is right, IMHO).  But, never the less, the Govt has the right to enforce the the laws that are in effect & we are to submit to the Govt. 


 


   

 

[TJ]

We pay at least an extra half a cent per pound of watermelons harvested to get legals. That doesn't sound like a lot of $$$ unless you ship about 5 million pounds a year like we do. You do the math !!!!!   

I agree it's a lot of money, but if no or very few illegals were in this country, almost every other watermelon producer would have to pay it & it would all balance out.   

 

[JbarL]

...we could pratically take our military/guard/rotc/ and  post a "line" of governement and citizens one after another, pratically hand in hand...and guard our borders....these illegal folks have "nothing" to lose.....if they are caught..then what....is it cheaper to let them go or process them/ keep them in internemt facalities and send them back???? i quanantee you if the minuteman malitia ideas of protecting "there" rights were represented in actual "masses of legal amercians".....say everyone take a day and just simply "gather"....just like the illegals were given there day to show there unity....and simply gather "in masses".....got quite a bit of a stir......maybe is should be our turn to let the governement realize our fellings on the issue........could legal amercians gather the numbers that were rallied for the "rights of the illegals"....the governement just "hates" that....."large groups of folks"...gatherin....talkin....spreadin the word....get everone all stirred up.......but what they really get nervous about is when they start to "move"....then gather support along the way.....more "movers" ...more talkin'....some startin' to get stirred up them selves......national guard  units go straight to the middle east....but werent "qualified" to do border patrol duty ???....maybe thats because there isnt a duties of the patrol???" ........we have no border "control"duty....for some reason we no just how many there are here ....what they do for work....where they git there medical care....where they apply for federal food/school programs...if they wanted them they could get them there, for some reason we simply "wont" do it...........heck maybe if there  wasnt any work for them(illegals) anymore ....no more free med/food/education.... .........or maybe ...its not the jobsand there seemingly abundent ''motherload of work that is avaliable"...."that are so attracive ..its simply the medical/food/ and educational servies.....start there...take it away from them  if they are "illegal"...soon they will stop comming...and maybe ....actually try and do it the legal way....if they have to go back across the bordeer intlll things are sorted out then so be it....if thats the case and the benifits are gone and all thats left is work here legeally.... and of course you have to be prepared to maybe......pay 1100.00 for an emergency room visit and 8 hrs in the er....or better yet work  here legeally  and then you can get the oppertunity to  pay 3000/yr for insurance...but that will only cover 80% of that 1100.00 ( and you'll have your deductable,too...but they will explain all that to you)....but  the bad news is.....most of the jobs amercians wont do, probally donteven have an insurance plan....cause most of the jobs amercians "wil"l do ...dont have it either....and with all this work you and family are doing........you probally wont get anyor as much food assistance....might not get the free school lunches.....depending on how many working folks are living at that particular address........cut off funding and start enforcing at the points of "collecions" of
illegals  recevieing any "legal" tax payer funded programs" "....that would be on governement property of course, so have govrnment law enforcment, enfore the federal law there........its going to difficult and historic...but how we hadle this is a must for the confidence of the "legals" as well, especially now........the flow will stop at the borders when "they no the well is dry at the end of the line".  ...... do that and see how important there "jobs alone" are worth to them here.....and what the topic and tone of the next march they decide to have will be......and how open and symphetic  the media/public sentament is then...........see what our governement will do then. :-\........its time for this governement to "fish or cut bait".......and im afraid its stinkin' a bit already......jbarl

 

[TJ]

With all this talk about America going down the tubes & a shift to a Biblical persective...  I wanted to post Psalm 80 beginning in verse 4 (my comentary below each verse). It's written about Old Testament Isreal, but I think that it can have some modern day applications to the USA.


4 O LORD God Almighty, how long will your anger smolder against the prayers of your people?  
***The prayers of God's people were making Him angry!  It wasn't because they weren't praying... they were praying in the wrong manner.***  

5 You have fed them with the bread of tears; you have made them drink tears by the bowlful.
***God was clearly punishing His people & they were not enjoying it at all!!  Are we quite to that point?  Probably not, but we soon could be!!***

6 You have made us a source of contention to our neighbors, and our enemies mock us.
***He's talking about Old Testament Isreal, but doesn't it sound similar to modern day USA?***

7 Restore us, O God Almighty; make your face shine upon us, that we may be saved.
***This is the only hope for our country, IMHO.  It's not sending illegals back, it's not electing only conservatives... It's allowing God to restore us, so that He can once again, begin to bless us.***  

8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
***God had previously blessed Isreal greatly!  God has also greatly blessed America in it's past... that's a fact that's hard to deny!!***

9 You cleared the ground for it, and it took root and filled the land. 10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches. 11 It sent out its boughs to the Sea, its shoots as far as the River.    
***God allowed them to have many abundant resources... again this is about Old Testament Isreal, but it sounds very similar to the USA of old, too.***

12 Why have you broken down its walls so that all who pass by pick its grapes?  
***Again, this is about O.T. Isreal, but doesn't this sound a lot like the topic being discussed?  I think that the reason why the illegals & other countries are "picking our grapes" is because USA Christians as a whole are allowing themselves to get distracted by everything else & they are not keeping their eyes focused on Jesus Christ.***      

13 Boars from the forest ravage it and the creatures of the field feed on it.  
***Not sounding good for O.T. Isreal... but, it's starting to not look so good for modern day USA either.  Is this going to be our fate?***

14 Return to us, O God Almighty! Look down from heaven and see! Watch over this vine, 15 the root your right hand has planted, the son you have raised up for yourself.    
***The only hope for Old Testament Isreal is the only real hope for the USA... and that is God watching over us & blessing us!!***

16 Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish.
***God doesn't tollerate unrepentant disobiedence in His children!!  Never has, never will!!***    

17 Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.  
***Their only hope was in the promised Messiah... our only hope is in Jesus, who is the risen Lord!***

18 Then we will not turn away from you; revive us, and we will call on your name.  
***A true Revival of all USA Christians is the only thing that will save this country.  We need to be revived!***  

19 Restore us, O LORD God Almighty; make your face shine upon us, that we may be saved.  
***That should be the prayer of ever single Christian for this country.  It's not too late!!***


Quite honestly, illegal immigration maybe a big part of the reason why this country is going down the tubes, but it is only a problem & it will continue to be a problem ONLY if the USA Christians don't keep their eyes focused on Jesus.    

 

[TJ]

One more thing...

Here in our community there is a company that is contracted by the Dept of Labor.  Within the past year, at least a few illegals have lived on this center.  These illegals, along with the other students who are legal citizens, get paid a bi-weekly allowence, they get a clothing allowence, they are provided uniforms, they receive FREE medical & dental care, they receive free housing & food, they get extra money if they have minor children, they are provided transport (bus & air), they are sometimes transported to recreational events & their addimission is paid for, they are transported to shop @ the local Walmart, they are transported to Evansville, IN (if they have weekend passes) & they are picked up at the end of the weekend, and they receive a free education (GED, vocational skills, etc.).  This is just one of the things that our Govt does for "illegals"!! 

 

 

[Doc]

  Shortdawg, Great friend that you are I'm still going to have to disagree with you. Once again the key word here is illegal. If someone you know smokes dope, does crystal meth, or steals from you or your neighbor as long as they go to Church or school does that mean it's ok. I know I'm stretching it some , but the point I'm trying to make is illegal is ILLEGAL. How do you think the legal immigrants feel knowing what they went thru to get in here or the ones that have applied & have been denied or are still waiting. I pay an average per each one of my kids in a public school $225.00 per year in "fees", because our budget is always running short. Last night they annouced they are going to pay any city employee who learns Spanish & passes a test will receive a $2500.00 bonus, & will get that same bonus for every 2 years they stay employed. Now if our budget is in a deficit how can we justify spending money we don't have to benefit people who won't learn our language.

 

[Jill]

He won't be given his Citizenship "Free-gratis", either. He can only be termed ''employee'' during active military service. Sure, knabe( sorry, forgot to capitalize, darn public schools), his army resume will help him get his foot in the door. Actually, Knabe, when He eventually gets his Citizenship, his Family won't "instantly" become citizens. Relax, Man. Seriously,They will qualify first for work visas, then, ultimately, a "Resident Alien" ( persons of this category can do everything legally here,  except own a gun and Vote)status, known as "green card''-- they literally used to be green.

The only way that memebers of his immediate family can become Citizens, is if they Take the Class ( and Pass it. Without English proficiency? Not a chance), then apply. If they pass the screening process (criminal and financial background check), They become Citizens ONLY when THEY THEMSELVES step up and take the initiative on their own, after meeting the requirements, Take the Oath of Allegiance.

There is no Conspiracy out here.

GB

The immediate family has been here sponging on tax payers since he was 13 months old, how exactly do you think this is a good thing??  That means for at least 18 years you have been paying for his education at the very least, you are condoning this?

 

[shortdawg]

I thank everyone for their opinion on this issue and respect each one. The legal/illegal thing was not and is not the main issue with me. I just don't appreciate the stero-type people give them. They are just like any other race of people - there are some good ones and there are some who should be behind bars forever.  Example : Would you call all black cattle angus just because they are black or all red cattle shorthorn just b/c they are red ! All of them are not bad people!

 

[JbarL]

i think the stero/type they bear is not them personally it is the fact that 22 million live here illegally, and "chances are" ( in floks' mind) that being know to be so easy/ and even acceptable now, that theyve lost the benifit of the doubt....yoiu see a nice  i piece of stock....you ask about its genitics, anbd they say is 5/8 maine....whats the first quest you haveto ask....is it phaf??????...its nothing personal against the owner/seller, and especially the animal......its just an important fact that you need to know....because  the pha issue is/was  a bit out of sorts there for a bit....our illegal immagrants status and influx is in a bit out of sorts now as well....makes folks nervous....like i mentioned earlier......its not going to be a popular or a  quick fix......and it will be historic......i'm jsut afraid the longer we wait...the more confidence and hope illegals continue to gain and learn to  enjoy as "illegals" is just making it harder for them to be prepared to be  removed froma all these monies and services now being affored them........illegals have become comfortable in getting here.....working here...and recieving amercian benifits inteded for our taxpayers budget, for legal citizens...........stop the monies and services, at the state buildings door step.....hand them there immagration papers there and be prepared to deal  with the social unrest in a democratic fashion.......we've got the confidence to go to the middle east....kill there president.....demand that they have free elections, including women voting....personally as a nation support "our" choice of governement they should have....surely a little civil order can  be gathered up and sorted out as well in the ole usa........politicans talk about "losing" our credability as a nation, becaue of our actions in the middle east......i think we lost our credabality as a world leader, when  we coudnt even protect our legal citizens monies and programs, and preserve the rights of those  that are truly entilted/ and componding our nations finacial/ social  problems ........to delay is to deny.....the consequences of delaying this shhould not further fall on the taxpayers pocketbooks and future direction of this nation.....and the saftey of citizens in border states.....jbarl

 

[kimbaljd]

I have a real big problem with them not paying taxes and sending the amount of money they do back to Mexico. I think I heard somewhere a while back that Mexico has more money being wired to people in Mexico than anything they do in Mexico. I dont know how to put that into words right now. It basically said that Mexico's greatest income is from money being wired in from USA.

 

[knabe]

I just don't appreciate the stero-type people give them.

i don't appreciate the stereotype that people who are against illegal aliens get called racists and this is in anyway stereotyping anyone.  the proponents have gotten a lot of mileage by calling people racist.  it IS racist that the proximity of mexico to the US, and for that matter canada, gives a preference to mexicans and other latino's, hispanics (60-70% of all illegal aliens, they are stereotyping themselves by BEING the largest group which is what a stereotype is)

they give their money back to mexico?  this is not racist?  mexico violates their own laws on interference with governement policy by giving out maps, essentially exporting people they can't, scratch that, WON'T employ by giving back mineral rights back to citizens.  mexico taking this right from the people was one of the largest communist power grabs in the northern hemisphere.  mexico is using capitalism to finance their communist scheme to pay for a typical two tiered communist society, something hillary cried over that we need more of with her in charge handing out fines for not participating in her health program.

in communism, THERE IS NO CHANGE FOR THE BETTER, ONLY THE WORSE.

this has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BREAKING THE LAW, and if mexicans etc are the one's who benefit the most from it, it goes with the territory that they are the poster child of this nonsense.  it's not like they aren't getting paid to illegally ship in middle eastern extremists either. 


just goes to prove that all you have to do is scream racism and everyone cowers.  this man will not cower in false accusations.  the hispanic community is nearly equally divided on illegal immigration, but the news portrays it as homogeneous, is that RACIST?  heavens no because it doesn't fit the template of conversion to communism.  same with the black community.  jesse jackson, al sharpton yell racism at every turn, but when was the last time you heard them cry racism when a black person was racist?  THAT, MY FRIEND, IS RACISM.

 

[kimbaljd]

AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jill]

This is an email that I got yesterday and it breaks it down a little different, but this is basically the issue

Let's say I break into your house

A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!!!  It explains things better than all the baloney you hear on TV.

Her point:

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.
Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely.
Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.  
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.  I've done all the things you don't like to do.  I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters:
You are Required to let me stay in your house
You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are Required to Educate my kids
You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.  I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.
And oh yeah, I get a free education, where you
have to pay your own way through college.(TEEHEE)
And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold,
uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.And don't forget to make sure your forms are in MY language - I need to understand them...

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America if you agree, pass it on (in English ).
Share it if you see the value of  it.

If not blow it off.........
along with your future Social Security funds, and a lot of other things.

It has nothing to do with racism or stereo typing, they ARE illegal and that IS the point.

 

[chambero]

The fact is that our construction and a large part of our agricultural industries would shut down without the labor force.

However, the current system is wrecking our schools, health care system, etc. just like everyone knows.

I'm not sure that the only real solution is to legalize them so we can collect taxes, etc.  It would keep both groups from taking advantage of the other.

 

[knabe]

The fact is that our construction and a large part of our agricultural industries would shut down without the labor force.

len richardson of california farmer has posted extensively on the perceived ag labor shortage.  there is none.
let's say there are 1-2 million ag workers "needed".  get them on a farm bill program, codify they have to get in line like everyone else, codify no birth right citizenship, it was for slaves, not those who are illegal.  when grape picking is fully automated, lettuce picking, weed thining is automated, why do we need them.  it's like there is never any improvement.  there is no shortage of labor, only a means to avoid paperwork by hiring illegals.  they commit crime far beyond returning vets from iraq, which by the way is only 1/5 of the general population, but leave that to the NY Times to not tell the truth about that.  without respect for the law, why would anyone expect anyone to obey it?

tomato harvesters were invented the last time we enforce the law, and guess what?  the ag industry didn't shut down, it expanded.  same with strawberries, they have expanded.  they even invented the square tomato for mechanical harvesting.


only with a farm worker bill that allows them to work similar to the bracero program, why do we need the other 18-48 million?  to maintain landscaping of high water use plants for rich people or their nannies for politicians, including bush for YEARS, but no repsectable republican will go there.


this is essentially a problem because being called a racist is more costly to reelection than the pocketbooks of americans.  this is not racist.


cesar chavez, who only got a labor contract for ONE year in california for the strawberry pickers was against illegals, but the media doesn't report this.

basically the democrats need votes, the republicans need cheap labor.  this is essentially a tariff on legal american workers so no one can hire them to do farm labor.  my uncle was a farm laborer for about 50 years.  the reason illegals are taking these jobs is because whenever they enter a market, wages go DOWN, and since they typically live more people to similar resources than americans, they can afford to live at higher densities.


this is just wrong.

i'll try and get the figures on the phony labor shortage in CA.

 

[JbarL]

the jobs have always been there......for us not living at a border region with high agraculture trades in demand....some of us "yankees" dont get to see the "close to the border" goings on in real life........but it is in ohio in the tomato/apple/ orchard  areas as well....and these are jobs that the local kids ( me include) did in the 60's.....its not the jobs that need created....its an organized labor force that needs to be established........and the present republicans just can't find the right words to replace...like ".organized labor"  or  "unions"....they come up with " guest worker program"....."..inviting our new "guests" (illegals) to sign up and register, pay  back dues and penalties....and be "registered"  (organized?)....to obtain gainful employment on a steady basis with not only work....but "job security"....the kinda things labor unions could only now dream of being able to offer the fledgling amerecian workforce....jobs we got.....an organized work force and format for fairness is whats needed......if you had a 16 /17 yr old son/daughter who wanted to "work the fields"  for the summer to make some cash...would you feel confortable putting them in a large group of workers whom you knew were 30% illegals with no tracable prior or present "ties to the community"....or accountabality???........sterotyping "does" exist, but only because the "powers that be"  have allowed the americans to unwillingly been put in a position where for we've lost that "warm fuzzy feeling"  that we enjoyed for so long......we cant trust the folks that left the gate open and  lost track of em".......and now we've got doubts ourselves that they  are even going to do anything about it........."organize...not communize  jbarl